The gild is off the lily as ethanol falters

[Inkara1]

Flex fuel gasoline/compressed natural gas cars didn't seem to sell that well.

 

[catocom]

there's lot's of combo/multi options to consider though.

imo, solar could work with just about any other combo.

 

[Gonz]

Even better, why don't we wait until someone invents a new system & puts it in production? Someone not backed by a wishy-washy government...

President Barack Obama, as part of sweeping budget cuts, will trim the $169 million per year in funding of fuel-cell and hydrogen research down to $68.2 million

Which, I agree with...it's not the governemnts place

story

 

[valkyrie]

The mandates of government will not be met next year as ethanol loses its glow as the panacea of fuels.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/12/business/12ethanol.html?_r=1&ref=business

I don't believe that ethanol was ever a "panacea of fuels". This was all a big marketing ploy by Big Corn and it worked to push the prices up.

What we need is better fuel efficiency coupled with more efficient fuels. This would likely mean a total revolution for an automobile engine. The Otto (4 stroke) engine is inefficient, losing much of it's energy in the form of heat. (The Internal Combustion Otto Engine is about 35% efficient, the rest is waste heat.)

On the upside, now that the price of corn is high this may spark a return to more traditional beef ranching, where the cattle are fed more on grass than corn. Corn fattens them up fast for market but is not healthy for the cattle, increases cost to the rancher (antibiotics, feed costs, etc.) and produces a lower standard of meat than grass fed cattle. Ah, the silver lining!

 

[valkyrie]

That was merely a news story on a methane capture program which is like numerous others which have been in operation elsewhere for decades. Nothing new except where it is located. I have no problem with methane capture programs. It is like free fuel and the ROI is fairly short.

I would bet that the enviros are against methane capture because:

1. You have to have an evil landfill
2. Burning methane creates GW gases

Your suspicions are not founded in fact.
Environmental groups and agencies are pushing for Colorado coal mines to reduce greenhouse gases by capturing the methane released during mining.
... so that it's burned off or used as fuel.
Uh.... "Burning methane creates GW gases"
... it creates George W Bush gases?

 

[catocom]

Even better, why don't we wait until someone invents a new system & puts it in production? Someone not backed by a wishy-washy government...



Which, I agree with...it's not the governemnts place

not invested in, but legislated so it Can be done without all bull.
So the gov officials themselves can't profit directly.
So we don't have the crap regulation for profit.

 

[jimpeel]

Your suspicions are not founded in fact.
Environmental groups and agencies are pushing for Colorado coal mines to reduce greenhouse gases by capturing the methane released during mining.
... so that it's burned off or used as fuel.
Uh.... "Burning methane creates GW gases"
... it creates George W Bush gases?

I didn't say that landfills are the only source of methane. The article referenced was about methane capture from a landfill source.

WINDER - It's the first of its kind in the Southeast,and the city of Winder has it; a facility designed to capture and process the methane gas that emits from landfills.

The enviros hate mining also.

If we could just capture this:

http://www.ia.ucsb.edu/pa/display.aspx?pkey=1482

Gas Escaping From Ocean Floor May Drive Global Warming

July 19, 2006

(Santa Barbara, Calif.) – Gas escaping from the ocean floor may provide some answers to understanding historical global warming cycles and provide information on current climate changes, according to a team of scientists at the University of California, Santa Barbara. The findings are reported in the July 20 on-line version of the scientific journal, Global Biogeochemical Cycles.

Remarkable and unexpected support for this idea occurred when divers and scientists from UC Santa Barbara observed and videotaped a massive blowout of methane from the ocean floor. It happened in an area of gas and oil seepage coming out of small volcanoes in the ocean floor of the Santa Barbara channel –– called Shane Seep –– near an area known as the Coal Oil Point seep field. The blowout sounded like a freight train, according to the divers.

Atmospheric methane is at least 20 times more potent than carbon dioxide and is the most abundant organic compound in the atmosphere, according to the study's authors, all from UC Santa Barbara.

 

[Gonz]

a big marketing ploy by Big Corn

So the gov officials themselves can't profit directly.

Two hilarious lines in one thread.

Thanks

 

[Winky]

Ethanol has always been a load of crap.
The world is swimming in a sea of crude oil.
The government likes to meddle try this:
starting in 2010 any car that gets 50 MPG
is exempt from all taxes during manufacture and sale.
In addition purchase of the vehicle new, generates
a 10% of the purchase price tax credit in the year of purchase.
Also said vehicle is exempt from all pollution/safety standards.
In 2015 the requirement increases to 80 MPG.

Take a wild guess what the result would be…

 

[valkyrie]

I didn't say that landfills are the only source of methane. The article referenced was about methane capture from a landfill source.



The enviros hate mining also.

If we could just capture this:

http://www.ia.ucsb.edu/pa/display.aspx?pkey=1482

I know you didn't. I'm just adding. You had said that environmental groups would be opposed to methane capture from a landfill but I don't believe you are correct. We have landfills because we have trash, that's a fact of life. What we do with those landfills would depend on the approach we take. If we leave it there, open, polluting, seeping methane into the atmosphere, then that would be a non-environmentally friendly approach. If we plan the landfill better and capture that methane, then this would be a more environmentally friendly approach to our garbage.

So I was countering your statement that environmental groups would probably not like the methane capture because they don't like landfills.

 

[valkyrie]

Ethanol has always been a load of crap.
The world is swimming in a sea of crude oil.
The government likes to meddle try this:
starting in 2010 any car that gets 50 MPG
is exempt from all taxes during manufacture and sale.
In addition purchase of the vehicle new, generates
a 10% of the purchase price tax credit in the year of purchase.
Also said vehicle is exempt from all pollution/safety standards.
In 2015 the requirement increases to 80 MPG.

Take a wild guess what the result would be…

Why, Winky, I do believe you have something here with the tax exempt status during manufacture (car manufacturer) and sale (customer/citizen).

I would not exempt them from pollution/safety standards though. You'd set up the manufacturer for a hailstorm of law suits.

As for the "sea of crude oil"... if that were true we wouldn't be in the mess we're in.

 

[Gonz]

During the Carter mishap, every "expert" prediceted we'd be out of oil by the 90's, no later than 2000.

Is that why we're paying less, in inflation adjusted dollars, than under Jiminy's rule?

 

[valkyrie]

During the Carter mishap, every "expert" prediceted we'd be out of oil by the 90's, no later than 2000.

Is that why we're paying less, in inflation adjusted dollars, than under Jiminy's rule?

The oil crisis of the 70's was created, not because of a natural shortage, but because we rely on foreign oil and OPEC stopped production to increase their profits.
1973:
- dependence on foreign oil had grown from 22% (in 1970) to 36%
- US consumption of oil has steadily increased
- Nixon is in office with the Watergate Scandal in full media feeding frenzy mode (a weakened US government)
- Israeli/Arab conflicts put a strain on US/Arab relationship
- OPEC starts oil embargo against US and the Netherlands
- oil prices skyrocket

What happened in 1979? The Iranian Revolution interrupted the flow of foreign oil again. President Jimmy Carter's speech (I assume you are talking about his speech) was more about conservation. He said that with an increase of demand on oil at 5% each year that the world's demand would outgrow production of oil in the near future if measures were not taken. We cut back. We conserved.

The increased price of fuel has never been about a natural shortage but rather about a dependence on foreign resources. Why should we allow ourselves to be under the thumb of some foreign entity? This is America, land of the free, home of the brave. My wish is that we move away from oil to pad us from the influence of those that do not have our best interest at heart.

 

[Gonz]

Why should we allow ourselves to be under the thumb of some foreign entity?

I agree. Drill here, now.

My wish is that we move away from oil to pad us from the influence of those that do not have our best interest at heart.

High energy to low cost & the infrastructure is in place. Oil is our friend. When it becomes too expensive, a new better method will be found. I'd like to see it now but not at the expense of lowering our standard of living.

 

[Winky]

The straight up ‘Gawds honest’ truth fact is:
If we converted 72% of the vehicles on the road to electric
(semis and some locomotives can still burn domestic diesel)
and powered them (re-charged them) with electricity
generated by coal/nooclear
(yeah this would require a moderate improvement in the
currently existing power grid infrastructures)
we'd be able to tell them "foreign sources of oil"
to go back to living in tents in the desert.

Gee isn’t everything so simple?
Make me the Great Leader and all yer concerns
will be immediately alleviated!

 

[Gonz]

(yeah this would require a moderate improvement in the currently existing power grid infrastructures)

Lots of improvements. Lots & lots. It's almost as hard to get a power plant up as it is to get a refinery up.

 

[Winky]

Now don’t act like an obtuse Liburl on me now Bro
iffin’ ya git the goberment outta the way
you'd have more power plants/refineries
than you could shake a stick at!

 

[valkyrie]

(Crisakes, Winky, WTF! That pic takes forever to load!)

 

[Winky]

But was it worth the wait?
Was it good for you?

 

[valkyrie]

But was it worth the wait?
Was it good for you?

No... I was left... unsatisfied. Sorry.