'Constitutional crisis' looming over Obama's birth location

[2minkey]

seems like at this point we need a really clear and authoritative definition of "natural born citizen." maybe it's somewhere in the thread...

but then i'd find it hard to believe that anyone born in the US (hawaii) could not be a "natural born citizen."

and i guess that brings us back, for the 427th time, to the fact that hawaii certified the birth certificate.

so, um, what are we still doing here?

oh, right, receptacle duty. i got my rubber smock around here somewhere....

 

[Gonz]

Oh I get what they were trying to do now, with the "or a citizen of the United States, at the time of the adoption of this Constitution" bit. Yeah it makes sense to me now.

Edit: And I'm reading that link you provided. It is interesting.

Check out the Federalist Papers. These guys knew what they were doing.

 

[Gonz]

seems like at this point we need a really clear and authoritative definition of "natural born citizen." maybe it's somewhere in the thread...

It's up to Congress. They've changed the rules many times.

Look, I have no dog in this hunt, since it was ruled legal, I think the issue is solved.

However, there are some interesting arguments. I'm still unclear on why Obama still hasn't settled this issue by providing public proof, instead of asking the Hawaiian governor to seal the birth certificate, putting more mud in the water.

 

[pc_builder]

and i guess that brings us back, for the 427th time, to the fact that hawaii certified the birth certificate.

so, um, what are we still doing here?

I wasn't debating Barack Obama's birth certificate or his citizenship status. I was, however, using this thread to bring up a hypothesis that related to citizenship in the United States. That's all. I felt it was related enough to keep in the same thread.

 

[catocom]

IMO we have to look at Why that is worded that.
The main thing it is does the persons Loyalty belong to this nation.

We will have to have more of a track record, and information at this point.

IMO again, it doesn't look that good so far, but not what I expect ...Yet.



Look at past presidents, and the border issues. There isn't a good track record for any of the latter ones.

 

[2minkey]

yeah pc_builder that was just my cynicism, wasn't really directed at you. it was a good point you brought up.

this almost seems definitive...

"every human being born within the jurisdiction of the United States of parents not owing allegiance to any foreign sovereignty is, in the language of your Constitution itself, a natural born citizen."

the problem though is that it says who IS, but not WHO ISN'T.

in my reading of all this, the key distinction, almost by definition, and assuming the basic hurdle of citizenship is cleared, would be natural or naturalized. you're one or the other. obama was not naturalized, so... (though this too is somewhat nominal and squishy.)

 

[2minkey]

IMO we have to look at Why that is worded that.
The main thing it is does the persons Loyalty belong to this nation.

We will have to have more of a track record, and information at this point.

IMO again, it doesn't look that good so far, but not what I expect ...Yet.

yeah, um, but there's no legal basis for that and in any case it's a terribly subjective thing.

but, hey, he's a liberal, he must not love america. that's why he's made his life about service (say, in the unpatriotic pursuit of community service, yawn), rather than simply making a shitload of money as he could readily have done as a high-falutin' lawyer. yep, it's all clear to me now.

 

[catocom]

yeah, um, but there's no legal basis for that and in any case it's a terribly subjective thing.

but, hey, he's a liberal, he must not love america. that's why he's made his life about service (say, in the unpatriotic pursuit of community service, yawn), rather than simply making a shitload of money as he could readily have done as a high-falutin' lawyer. yep, it's all clear to me now.

I have reserved final judgments on him myself atm.

as far as lib/con I have values of both, and disagreements with both.
I just have slightly more con views.

 

[Inkara1]

IMHO, it seems that the constitution may have been misinterpreted for the past few centuries. It looks like anyone who is a U.S. citizen may become president. I don't see how it is exclusive to only natural born citizens.

You've fallen victim to the scourge of written English: the misplaced comma.

 

[Frodo]

I wasn't debating Barack Obama's birth certificate or his citizenship status. I was, however, using this thread to bring up a hypothesis that related to citizenship in the United States. That's all. I felt it was related enough to keep in the same thread.

To further your discussion, I think Gonz is right in that the second qualification listed is now null and void, unless you can find someone who is over 233 years old. The first part seems to get mixed up with native born, i.e. born on U.S. soil. I am pretty sure that there is a difference, albeit subtle, between natural born and native born. by definition, native born is a natural citizen. However, I think if you are born overseas, but still considered a U.S. citizen at birth, then you are a natural born citizen of the U.S., hence McCain is eligible to be President.

So, here are the questions. If you are born to 2 U.S. parents on an overseas vacation/work visa, are you at the time of birth a U.S. citizen? I think the answer is yes. Now let's look at the O.P. If Obama was HYPOTHETICALLY born in Austrailia, would be have been a U.S. citizen at birth? His mom was U.S. and his Dad was Kenyan, so neither was a citizen of Autrailia. What if he was HYPOTHETICALLY born in Kenya? Since his Dad was Kenyan, he would have easily qualified as a Kenyan citizen, so what does that do to his U.S. citizenship at birth?

 

[Cerise]

Uh oh.

Why has Hussein spent the big bucks to hide evidence of his birth location and not shut the issue down? Why not just end the speculation once and for all?

Apathy will destroy this nation.

 

[Cerise]

Ineligible Obama, Playing with Constitutional Fire

Numerous legal challenges have been filed in an effort to force president-elect Barack Obama to validate his constitutional eligibility for the office he seeks and while it is true that suit after suit has been denied in the courts, it is also true that all of them have been denied on a technicality rather than on the merits of the case against Obama.

And although Obama could have ended the debate months ago by simply delivering a $10.00 certified copy of his official birth records to prove his constitutional edibility, he has instead chosen to spend nearly a million bucks in legal defense fees hoping to run out the clock and assume office before any of the legal challenges will be heard by the courts.

 

[spike]

Wow, Camilla jumped 40 feet trying to commit suicide and lived? Amazing stuff.

 

[chcr]

I hear alfalfa sprouts are good for you too.

 

[habanero]

Has a Birth Certificate been found that says Obama was born in Kenya?

 

[catocom]

The burden of proof falls on proving, not dis-proving.

 

[2minkey]

proving what? the already state-confirmed hawaiian birth certificate?

 

[2minkey]

What if he was HYPOTHETICALLY born in Kenya? Since his Dad was Kenyan, he would have easily qualified as a Kenyan citizen, so what does that do to his U.S. citizenship at birth?

then he would have had to apply for a US passport at the US consulate in kenya and qualified for citizenship by birth abroad, which is exactly what my partner had to do in canada (her mom's american). at that don't sound like "natural born" to me.

the folks in kenya want him to have been born there because it's a symbolic win for them. too bad for them he wasn't.

 

[BeardofPants]

I hear alfalfa sprouts are good for you too.

Yeah, too bad about the taste.

 

[Gonz]

Let's take the next step....

Assuming someone proves that Obama was born elsewhere & his natural born citizenship is found to be untrue, what happens? He can't be elected to the office of Presdident & he can't be sworn is as President. If both have already happened, is the entire election then a fraud? Biden will be automatically placed into office but if the election was a fraud, was Joe legally elected?