Ambulance Accident

woodman19_99

New Member
One of my co workers came in to day claiming he was almost run down by an ambulance with its lights on. This sparked several discussions on the following questions:

Does the ambulance have to stop to help you? What if there is someone already in the back and it's life or death? Do they stop, or just watch you bounce on the pavement?

Whose fault is it? In the above case, the coworker was crossing when he was supposed to and looked to make sure no one was coming. Unfortunately, the sun was coming directly into his eyes which obviously made it extremely difficult to see down the Avenue.

If the ambulance does keep going, is it considered a hit and run? Can the drivers be held accountable in anyway?

I honestly don't know the answers to these questions. I am sure it has happened in NYC with some person not paying attention for whatever reason and stepping off the curb into the ambulance. Does anybody have answers/opinions to these questions?
 

Luis G

<i><b>Problemator</b></i>
Staff member
Isn't it a requirement to have the siren on in order to run through red lights and such?
 

woodman19_99

New Member
Alright, so to add to his story, i guess the siren was on. But in NYC, you kind of get immune to them, sad as that may be... does that affect the outcome?
 

chcr

Too cute for words
AFAIK, emergency vehicle drivers are still responsible for obeying the rules of the road. If they get in an accident while doing something outside the normal traffic rules, they are at fault and responsible. I don't think this necessarily abrogates your responsibility to get out of the way if possible. At least that's the TN law as I understand it.
 

Error

Banned
That would be so funny. There's no one in the back, and the ambulance runs over some person... then you hear like the back-up noise... BEEP BEEEP BEEEP.

lawl.
 

Error

Banned
lol. They run him in the emergency room.. the nurses and doctors are all like WHAT HAPPENED?!

"uhmm.... he was hit by a... a... a.... a .... a truck?"
 

markjs

Banned
I'm obviously not a lawyer, but I have heard before that even police are required to obey the rules of the road. Speeding and disobeying traffic laws, in the case of emergency vehicles, is somewhat of a legal grey area so far as I know.

If they don't get to the hospital fast enough, they are held accountable and can be sued. If they break the law and save the patient in the back, but hurt someone else in the process they damn well will get sued, and if they hurt someon trying to save someone else, and both suffer worse, they damn sure get sued twice! Damned if you do, damned if you don't and double damned if you screw it up doubly.

Is it any wonder why ambulance services are so spendy? I know at least in Tacoma, the emergency system is really excellent. Since I was a small child when an ambulance had to go through downtown at least, they someohow are able to manipulate all the traffic lights along the path of the emergency vehicle giving it right of way the whole way. Don't know how they did it back then, but I know they did.

With the technology avaialable today, and lightening fast communication, they ought to be able to implement that in any urban area, but again, it's costly, I am sure, and not a simple thing to coordinate I would imagine.

Still, I do know if an ambulance breaks traffic laws, and somone is hurt, they will be ticketed by local police, and they will be liable for any damages they incur. I can't answer your question about what they would do in such an event. I think that would be dependent on many factors, including, who was driving the ambulance, their company policy on such matters, if any exists, and perhaps many other factors that don't come to mind presently. I seriously doubt that there is any set policy, I imagine drivers are simply expected not to get in accidents.

Have you tried googling for stories about similar situations where an accident actually did occur? I know it does happen, and I am sure the stories exist somewhere, and every time such a thing happens and cases are tried in the courts, precedents are set, and policy is made. I think in this case Google is your friend.
 

Inkara1

Well-Known Member
Is it any wonder why ambulance services are so spendy? I know at least in Tacoma, the emergency system is really excellent. Since I was a small child when an ambulance had to go through downtown at least, they someohow are able to manipulate all the traffic lights along the path of the emergency vehicle giving it right of way the whole way. Don't know how they did it back then, but I know they did.

They use an infrared device that triggers a switch. Think of it as a strong TV remote control. That's what those little black things sticking up on the traffic lights are for.

ir-sensor_f.jpg


It's possible to buy one online or build one yourself with online instructions, but they're illegal for the general public to have. It's been a problem around here lately, since people will use it to convenience themselves, but it inconveniences everyone else, since the traffic light pattern gets messed up, causing back-ups and sometimes even accidents.

I've seen one get used before. Don't know who used it, but my left-turn lane only got to have one car go before the light turned yellow, and one more before it turned red. Then the left-turn lane to my right on the street crossing the one I was on got to go. That's different than the usual order of which lanes get to go and at what point (I go through that intersection every day on my way to work and have gotten used to its programming). There were no emergency vehicles around.
 

JJR512

New Member
Here's my 2¢ an an ambulance driver.

The device that controls traffic signals is called the Opticon. Not all amublances have it, and not all traffic lights have it.

There have been many comments about how ambulances (and police cars) still have to obey the rules of the road, even while operating with lights and sirens. This is not technically true. We are allowed by law to violate certain traffic laws. However, we must always operate the vehicle with what the law calls "due regard" to the safety of others. We are allowed to break some laws like speed limit, traffic lanes and directions, turning and U-turns, etc., but not if it is unsafe to do so. Furthermore, we are only allowed to break those laws when a true emergency exists, typically defines as a life-or-death situation.

If an ambulance is involved in some type of incident whereby a bystander may be injurred, the ambulance should stop, unless they are carrying a patient that urgently needs to get to the hospital. If the ambulance was using lights and sirens, then since they should only be doing that if the patient is in a dire condition, then they most likely will not stop; however, they most definitely should notify someone by radio of what happened and where so that additional help can be sent to the new scene.

This actually applies to an ambulance whether they caused the incident, just witnessed it, or came upon it. It is my understanding that if I have a patient in a dire condition, I do not have to stop for an accident I see or come upon. If I have a non-urgent patient, I can stop, but do not absolutely have to (it would be tricky, since by law, one of the two of us on the ambo has to stay with the patient, so only one person can get out and render aid). We would make sure other emergency services are aware of the other incident. This also applies if have no patient but are on the way to get one (we have been dispatched). When I'm driving an ambulance at work (a commercial ambulance company that transports patients between medical facilities, nursing homes, doctor's offices, and hospitals), my company will have a very good idea of the condition of the patient we're going to go get, so we'll have a good idea if we have time to stop or not. But if I'm riding the ambulance at the volunteer fire department, which responds to 9-1-1 incidents, we always go "hot" (lights and sirens) to the incident scene. This is done in case the situation is actually worse than what was reported over the phone to the emergency dispatcher, which is a not-infrequent occurance. But this practice of emergency services ambulances going lights and sirens to an incident scene, even if all the caller reported to the 9-1-1 dispatcher was "my kid's nose is bleeding" is being attacked by some people who call it an unnecessary risk. Those people do not realize that, going back to that nose-bleed call as the example, sometimes a parent, in a panic, will call 9-1-1, say their kid's nose is bleeding and hang up, but being panicked, completely forget to mention that the reason why the kid's nose is bleeding is because some other kid hit him over the head with a baseball bat, and in addition to his nose bleeding, so are his eyes, nose, mouth, and ears.

Sorry I got a little off topic there, I guess...

The answer to one of the other questions, about whose fault is it, is that it depends on the jury. If the ambulance approached the intersection with lights and sirens, and somebody stepped off the curb in front of it, and the driver did not have time or space to avoid hitting the person, then I'm sorry to say this but I hope the jury finds the driver not responsible. And I do not believe that being immunized or jaded to the sound of sirens by repeated experience absolves anyone of the duty to be alert to the sound and what that sound portends.
 

Luis G

<i><b>Problemator</b></i>
Staff member
Wow, you seem to have a lot of info, and first hand info by the way you wrote it. You drive an ambulance or work in that field Justin?
 

JJR512

New Member
Yes, I'm an Emergency Medical Technician - Basic (EMT-B, or EMT for short), which is kind of like an entry-level Paramedic (technically termed EMT-P, everyone says Paramedic). What Paramedics can do that I can't are mainly administer a bunch of different drugs through an IV (I can only give a few drugs, and only orally or by direct injection), and manually defibrillate someone with severe heart problems with (I can only use an automated difibrilator, which is computerized and decides on its own if and when to shock, and can only deal with certain types of heart problems). Also, Paramedics can intubate (put a tube down your throat to help you breath), and I can't, although I can stick a tube into your mouth or up your nose to keep your airway open. I can stop your bleeding, be it a paper cut or arterial squirting; I can splint a broken finger or a broken thigh with the bone sticking out through the skin; I can deal with amputations, avulsions (near-amputation, part hanging on pretty much by skin or some tendons), poisoning, cessation of breathing or heartbeat, evisceration (your guts are hanging out your opened belly), eyes popped out of your head, gunshot and stab wounds, motorcycle accidents, fetuses that want to become newborn babies...some of that requires a full Paramedic, some doesn't, but anything that requires a Paramedic I can at least keep stable until they arrive if I get there first.

As an EMT, I work for a private ambulance company, and I volunteer at a local volunteer fire station. These are completely separate. Private ambulance companies mainly handle patient transport between medical facilities (hospital to hospital, or hospital to nursing home or the other way 'round). These patients have some kind of medical condition that prevents them from going by their own car or someone else driving them in a regular car. Private ambulance patients may also be people who are semi-permanently (or permanently) residing in a nursing home and they need to go to a doctor's office (eye, dentist, whatever) for a regular checkup, to a dialysis center for dialysis, or some other specialty care center. The vast majority of patients transported by private ambulances are what we call routine or mundane; there is very little excitement here, very little actual EMT skill use other than taking vital signs. On the other hand, fire departments (career/paid, or volunteer) handle the 9-1-1 calls for an ambulance, and they see it all. These are the guys responding to traffic accidents, shootings, women unexpectedly in labor, whatever. I am a member of a volunteer fire department as an EMT (just because it's called a fire department, it doesn't mean that every member is a fire fighter; some, like me, can be EMT only) as well as working for a commercial private ambulance company. I do not drive the ambulance for the volunteer fire department, because I do not have an Emergency Vehicle Operator certification, but I do drive an ambulance at my paying job, because commercial ambulance company drivers are not required by law to have that certification, although they are trained by the company they work for.

Not every EMT can drive an ambulance, and not every ambulance driver is an EMT. Two certification are required as a minimum to drive an ambulance in this state: First Responder (FR), and Emergency Vehicle Operator (EVOC, the C standing for Certified, which everyone says although it isn't actually part of the title). A First Responder is someone with about half the training of an EMT, and includes very basic life support and trauma care. An FR cannot ride in the back of an ambulance alone with a patient. FRs typically are not of much use in metropolitan areas where response to a 9-1-1 incident is typically a matter of a few minutes. FRs are of great use in more rural areas, where the nearest fire station may be more than twenty minutes away. FRs typically respond from their home in their own car, showing up at an incident well ahead of the ambulance, and they keep the patient alive until actual EMTs arrive. Because the driver of an ambulance obviously is not taking care of the patient in the back, it is considered the minimum certification to drive the ambulance; the reason why any certification at all is required is so that the driver can assist the EMT when they first arrive and get the patient ready to transport ("packaging the patient"). The EVOC is a 24-hour-long course (not all at once, of course), about half of that is class and the other half is driving on a closed course. Proficiency is demonstrated by driving around a laid-out course defined by orange traffic cones, in many spots barely wider than the vehicle; the circuit must be completed within a certain amount of time, and includes backing up, serpentine paths and lane changes, and multi-point turn-arounds.

For the record, when I said earlier that an ambulance should only transport a patient with lights and sirens if that patient is dying, that wasn't quite entirely accurate. The actual standard is that they must be in danger of losing life or limb.

Also, of course, most of what I said is correct for Maryland, USA, and may or may not be the same in other states or countries.
 

JJR512

New Member
One other thing I'd like to share about ambulances...

When you see an ambulance, and it is not using emergency lights or sirens, and you have the right of way, please do not yield your right of way to the ambulance. You may think you are being nice or curteous, but you are actually being an annoyance to the ambulance driver. We expect other vehicles to be driven the way other vehicles are always driven, and, just like anybody else, we get frustrated and angry when things don't go the way we expect them to. So, when you stop at a stop sign just before an ambulance stops at its stop sign on the cross street, don't just sit there and stare. GO!!! IT'S YOUR FUCKING TURN!!! Sorry about that...

If you do actually want to be nice or curteous, then the flip side to that is that when you do not have the right of way, please do not take it from the ambulance. Do not cut them off. Do not zip around them. Please remember this very important fact: Just because the ambulance isn't using emergency lights or sirens, that doesn't mean there isn't a patient inside. It just means that nobody's dying inside. There could very well be someone inside who is in some pain or feeling unwell and will be made worse by the ambulance having to slam on its brakes or perform a wild avoidance maneuver thanks to some idiot asshole driver who thinks he/she is more important.
 

chcr

Too cute for words
GO!!! IT'S YOUR FUCKING TURN!!!

That reminds me, it annoys me when anybody ignores the rules of the road thinking they're being polite. There are rules for a reason, and everyone should follow them.

Oh, and why the fuck do so few people understand the four-way stop?????
 

markjs

Banned
Yes, that's MADDENING, as we have 3 stoplights in our whole town, so there are an abundance of 4way stops, and nobody has a clue!

Just in case you are among the clueless; first come, first go. If you get there at the same time and are across the intersection, the order is right turn, straight, then left. If you get there at the same time and the other car(s) is perpendicular, then the guy on your right goes first, unless there is also a guy on his right in which case that guy goes first, then the guy on your right, then you.

The other thing that almost made me flip out the other day, is I was going up Sims way (the main drag) at the speed limit (30MPH, the second highest in the entire town behind a tiny stretch that is 35), and some jackass three cars ahead is letting everyone, and i mean EVERYONE, who was trying to turn left onto the road go in front of us! People were honking and riding his ass, and he only went slower, and actually waited for a few cars from side streets, that hadn't even reached the stop signs get to them, and turn in front of him. I do not know what this moron's problem was, but I am sure just about anyone behind him would have jacked him in the jaw given the chance.
 
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