Women aren´t always the victims...

[Gato_Solo]

October is domestic violence awareness month, and nothing cries out for awareness so much as the misconceptions that have been constructed around this issue by politically correct feminists. [/siz]

I was once beaten so badly by a boyfriend that I am legally blind in my right eye. In our culture, being a "victim" makes me an expert on domestic violence. The truth is quite different. Being on the wrong end of a hurled fist doesn't make me an expert on anything. The only insight I have on domestic violence comes from endlessly turning one question over and over again in my mind: Why did I stay?

Feminist explanations have been worse than useless. I was not oppressed by patriarchy — I was battered by one specific man. I didn't suffer from the Stockholm Syndrome — I simply refused to give up on a commitment.

The latter explanation I find particularly galling. To suggest an emotional interdependence between captor and captive is insulting. What I did was assume personal responsibility. I simply worked harder at the relationship and hoped for the best.

Clearly, I made a mistake.

Battered women are not generally portrayed as responsible adults with free will who strike a bad bargain or misjudge a situation. But that scenario is probably as common as any of the ones sketched by mainstream feminism. For example, a growing trend among Latinas, for whom family and children are often paramount, is for couples to work out their relationships, often with the aid of a priest or counselor. These women are choosing to put trust in their relationships and stay.

Another popular misconception about domestic violence is that men are always perpetrators and never victims. Yet the frequency with which women batter men is less and less disputed in political circles. There is just too much statistical evidence. According to the Justice Department's 1998 National Violence Against Women Survey, some 1.5 million women and more than 800,000 men are abused by an intimate every year.

Another report, Behind Closed Doors: Violence in American Families by researchers Murray A. Straus, Richard Gelles and Suzanne Steinmetz, caused a sensation in 1980 by reporting that men and women initiate physical abuse at about the same rate but the abuse of men is virtually ignored.

It was a sensation because it was, and still is, politically incorrect to view men as anything other than perpetrators. Steinmetz's earlier research, The Battered Husband Syndrome Victimology (1977-1978), found that wives initiated attacks as often as husbands do but caused less injury. The politically correct backlash against her was furious. Steinmetz eventually left her field, alleging, among other charges, that radical feminists had threatened to harm her children.

Erin Pizzey, who founded the first battered women's shelter in England, had much the same experience with her book Prone to Violence (1982) which provided anecdotal support for Steinmetz's findings. Pizzey was met "with a solid wall of feminist demonstrators. 'ALL MEN ARE RAPISTS,' 'ALL MEN ARE BATTERERS,' read the placards. The police insisted that I have an escort all round England for my book tour."

Pizzey argues that domestic violence, as an issue, has been highjacked by advocates who have a political and financial interest in denying that men are battered.

In Los Angeles County, Marc Angelucci is running up against those political and financial interests. Representing the activist group Stop Abuse For Everyone (SAFE), he is lobbying to establish the county's first battered shelter for "men-only."

In an interview, Angelucci described to me how the county maintains over twenty shelters for "women-only" at taxpayers' expense. Only one is willing to admit men as well, and it had to fight to do so. That shelter, in the remote desert community of Lancaster, is 80 miles from downtown L.A., a 3-hour drive. This makes it virtually inaccessible to men who must work or live in the city.

"What L.A. County is doing is discriminatory and illegal, and ... it is leaving itself vulnerable to a class-action lawsuit," the shelter's former director, Patricia Overberg, told the Los Angeles Daily News last month.

Angelucci determined to fight against the battering of men after witnessing the abuse of a close friend whose wife became violent when drunk. Despite frequent abuse, the friend didn't leave because he would have almost certainly lost custody of the three children. He did not fight back because he had been taught since infancy that men do not hit women. He did not call the police for fear of being arrested himself.

Or being laughed at. The stigma attached to battered men is so enormous that many researchers believe the best statistics we have badly understate the situation. Like women who were raped in the '50s, men who report spousal abuse should expect to be further humiliated by the authorities, family, "friends," and co-workers. The silencing shame these men feel is one of the reasons that feminism has been able to ignore them while claiming to care about "victims."

By focusing upon victimized men and by suggesting that women who stay may be making a choice rather than exhibiting a syndrome, I will be accused of trivializing domestic violence. But when such critics wake up tomorrow, they will view the world through two eyes. Because of domestic violence, I will never see the world completely again.

It is because I take domestic violence so seriously that I want October to bring "awareness" and not just politics as usual.



Source... (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,34159,00.html)

Also read this (http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2002/04/02/spousal_abuse/index.html?x)...

[greenfreak]

You bring this subject up alot--that women are looked at as victims more than men or that we don't get punished as much as men for the same wrongdoings. I'm starting to wonder if it's because you feel injustice has been served or because you're getting obsessed with it. I know there are a few things you feel strongly about but I'm starting to see a pattern.

Don't be a woman-hater. ;)

[Gato_Solo]

I don't hate women...I just don't like to see injustice.
:P :P

[Glok]

There is no doubt that men are abused along with women, but there is doubt that those women can cause great physical harm to 'their' men, as much as these men can cause damage to 'their' women. As much as I hate to draw this oh-so-old card, most men are stronger than most women. That being said, women have a very good grasp of the emotional realm, and can inflict great harm on the average man in this way. It is too bad that it is insisted that 'we all are equal' when, in fact, we are very different.

[MitchSchaft]

Yeah, I believe we are very different. Not only physically but emotionally as well. We weren't created equally and we will never be equal. We can try and act like we are, but you'll never convince me as such.

[Gonz]

The day women can pee standing up and not get their shoes wet is the day we are equal. Why is different so bad? I believe in equal work for equal pay. If I have to lift a 75lb box, alone, over my head then so does she. I belive that a woman is capable of running a country or a company. We are not the same. We have different emotional needs. We have different physical needs. We have incredibly different physiological needs. We can never be equal, though we can be as qualified.


Interesting stat that failed to make the liberal media. Taking away the women who take time off for raising their kids & similar pursuits, woman make more money & climb the socio-economic ladder faster than men. It just so happens they were blessed (or cursed) with the ability to bring forth life & have a natural tendency to want to partake in that life. Don't blame the men for your ovaries.

[MitchSchaft]

It was much easier for men to go to work and women to raise the kids. Now we both have to work and we try to raise our kids. I'm about to have to go through that next year!

[Gonz]

Originally posted by MitchSchaft
It was much easier for men to go to work and women to raise the kids. Now we both have to work and we try to raise our kids. I'm about to have to go through that next year!


Give up 2 new cars & the overpriced house & all the latest toys & that is not true. Make a decision that one of you stays home to raise your child & the other works to support the family. That's what we're doing. That's also why I soend so much time on the computer. I can't afford to do much else. If you have kids kids, why allow strangers to raise them?


ask whoever is most boisterous about both parents working-would you want your spouse to spend 8,10,12 hours a day-5 6 or 7 days a week with another person who tends to their every need? I certainly wouldn't.

[MitchSchaft]

Hey, I hear you man. My (soon to be next friday:)) wife said that when our kid is born (Nov. 11), if I lose my job she will let me stay home to take care of the kid. I am very tempted to quit my job because I feel that's how it should be. But I know we would need the money, but I want to raise my kid "proper", but hey we gotta pay the bills, but I don't want my kid to be a.... it goes back and forth and I hate it! Damn you women and your equal rights! lol

[Gonz]

Mitch, since I don't know your specifics, I am talking to you in a philosophical point only...understood? good:D




BULLSHIT!!!!!!!
But I know we would need the money, but I want to raise my kid "proper", but hey we gotta pay the bills, but I don't want my kid to be a.... it goes back and forth and I hate it!

and more BULLSHIT!!!! Move to a shittier house, buy 2 1971 Gremlins. Eat a lot of Top Ramen. Turn off the extra cell phone. When you leave a room, turn off the lights. Don't run 6 computers 24/7. Wait for it on video. fuck, wait for it on ABC. sell the 6.2 million dollar wedding set. WHATEVER IT TAKES, somebody, strike that, A PARENT has to be with their child. If you don't want them, don't have them. What's more important, a Ferrari or a YOUR kid (that's a toughie). Struggle, eat like shit, live in "that" neighborhood, ride bikes.

NOTHING IS MORE IMPORTANT IN THIS WORLD THAN YOU SPENDING TIME WITH YOUR CHILD...NOTHING[/siz]

kids all over the world live in rags & eat yesterdays dinner for breakfast & lunch & you know what? they still love their parents more than money. more than your status. more than a new bike. lower your standard of living will raise your child better than any day care.

[Leslie]

Gonz, that is the philosophy we live by as far as our kids go, I am staying home with our three, and am proud of it.

I do agree with what you've said here, not so rantily maybe :P but I do agree. It is possible if one wants to make the effort.

[Gonz]

thanks Leslie. I rant sometimes to stir shit. in this case-no. all I hear & read is how kids are going to pot & nobody knows why. look at the way we treat them., pump 'em out & as soon as momma's maternity leave is up, back to work she goes, passing jr & his/her siblings off to some minimum waged stranger who has too many already. it's damned hard having my wife not work. we were used to 2 L.A. salaries, then we moved closer to family when he was 9 months old. one income sucks. and it's worth ever unearned penny to the power of infinity.

[Leslie]

I gave up being upset about it a long time ago, just gave up, now I shake my head sadly and go on my way with what I'm doing. I'm sure this dual income stuff is having an effect on the kids these days

One income does suck, it blows donkeys balls more like it, but when my oldest comes home from school, gives me a hug and says he's glad I don't go to work like his friends' moms, and I compare that to the defeated sadness of the boy I babysit weekends when he says goodbye to his mom, it is all worth it. :)

[StuTheWise]

I have three kids and live on unemployment right now (which equates to roughly $5.57/hour at a full-time job). Last year I was unemployed for 5 months and only brought home about $18,000. Times have been tough... but $18,000 was enough to live on if we gave up every luxury (that included having a cold house in the winter, and a hot one in the summer... my computer hadn't been upgraded in two years :eek:)

One of my many bill collectors called me today and asked me if my wife was planning on getting a job. I wanted to tell her to take a flying leap, that my wife will never get a job as long as we have kids that need to be taken care of.

Quite honestly, we're better off than my friend who's wife works and they have no kids. Together they bring in roughly $50,000, and yet, they never have any money. When the times require, you get pretty creative with your finances. If I was making $50,000/year, I probably would never have any money either.

[MitchSchaft]

I don't know whether take that as an insult, Gonz. I thought we were seeing eye to eye here. Romen noodles rule and I love mac&cheese:D.

[Gonz]

no insult intended. just a swift kick in the ass to make you remember what's important. not only can it be done, it should be required to have at least one parent home full time to raise their children.

[MitchSchaft]

Man, this is gonna be rough. How do you convince a parent who wants the kid in daycare when she grew up in daycare herself.... I grew up with my mom staying at home and I can't imagine growing up in daycare. That would be horrible.

[MitchSchaft]

The both of us clear $55k/year together.

[Gonz]

Originally posted by MitchSchaft
How do you convince a parent who wants the kid in daycare when she grew up in daycare herself.... I grew up with my mom staying at home and I can't imagine growing up in daycare. That would be horrible.


Time to get tough. Why are you marring a woman who doesn't want to raise your child?

Is money more important than a happy,well rounded child?

Would she allow you to have a surrogate wife? if not, why is a surrogate mom okay?

Did she prefer her day care center over her real family?

Also, if motherhood is so tough & she can't handle it, why not abort?

more later.


55k/your portion doesn't mean you starve.

[Gonz]

ok, the woman is a little nuts, but give her this:

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0694521450.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

Editorial Reviews
Book Description

Children's welfare is the driving force behind Dr. Laura Schlessinger's mission. A devoted mother to her son, Deryk, she identifies herself as "her kid's mom" because that's her most important job.

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About the Author


Dr. Laura Schlessinger holds a post-doctoral certification in marriage, family, and child therapy and is licensed by the state of California as a marriage and family therapist. She is the author of the best-selling children's book Why Do You Love Me? and But I Waaannt It!, and best-selling adult books The Ten Commandments (with Rabbi Stewart Vogel), How Could You Do That?, Ten Stupid Things Women Do to Mess Up Their Lives, and Ten Stupid Things Men Do to Mess Up Their Lives. She has... read more

[Gato_Solo]

Originally posted by Glok
There is no doubt that men are abused along with women, but there is doubt that those women can cause great physical harm to 'their' men, as much as these men can cause damage to 'their' women.

The Oprah Winfrey Show. 2 Four men describe how their wives hit them in the lower back with a pole, cracked them over the head or in the neck with a frying pan...the audience renews its laughter after each story. The men are part of a "PMS Men's Support Group."

Imagine an audience of men laughing as battered women describe how their husbands threatened them with brain or spinal cord injuries by battering them over their heads or in their necks with a frying pan.

Note that all of these battered husbands are still with their wives. When a woman stays with a man who batters, we provide shelters to encourage her to escape. If she decides not to escape, we say she is a victim of "Battered Woman Syndrome."

When battered women form support groups, we call it a Battered Women's group — her victimization is cited. In the PMS Men's support group, the woman's excuse is cited — the fact that the men were battered is left out. For men, unemployment often precedes battering, but women rarely form a "Wives with Unemployed Husbands' Support Group" (no mentioning of the battering) to help them understand the cause of the battering — the unemployment. The emphasis of the men's group was on understanding, coping, changing the situation and then, if all else failed, getting out; the emphasis of battered women's groups is on getting out first, and second, locking up the problem (the man).

In brief, when women batter, men's first priority is to support the women and help them change; when men batter, women's first priority is to escape the men and put them in prison. The motto of feminists: "There is never an excuse for hitting a woman." Shouldn't it be, "There is never an excuse for hitting."? None of these distinctions were made by anyone on the show.

An attitude in American culture actually supports the battering of males, as it does the saving of whales. In 100% of advertisements in which only one sex is hitting or beating the other, it is the woman who is beating the man. 3 One-hundred percent. Sitcoms routinely portray women hitting men, almost never portray men hitting women. When he fails to leave, it is not called "Battered Man Syndrome"; it is called comedy. In the chapter on man bashing, we will see this pattern in everything from greeting cards sent by women to Disney films watched by children. This makes it hard to listen to a different reality, that of men who are abused...

Item. "Michael, 38, a construction worker and amateur rugby player, barricaded himself in a spare bedroom at nights to avoid beatings from his diminutive wife. During a three-year marriage he was stabbed, punched, kicked and pelted with plant pots. Despite his muscular, 15-stone [210 lbs] build, he was frightened to sleep for fear of attack. 'Nobody would have believed me if I'd told them the constant bruising was from beatings by my wife. I still have the scars from where she tore at my flesh with her fingernails. The screams from my daughter as she witnessed the abuse will haunt me for the rest of my life.'" 4

Item. "Paul, 32, a former Royal Marine, said his wife, Claire, an advertising executive, could suddenly become like 'a ferocious wild cat.' The slightest thing would set her off. 'She would pull me to the ground, kick me and pull large clumps of hair out of my head. I never fought back because she was a slightly built, petite woman.'" 5

Item. A 42-year-old British police officer, trained in tackling armed criminals (British police don't carry guns), was twice hospitalized by his 5-foot wife. He didn't report it. When asked why, he explained, "If I was to go up to my mates on the force and tell them my wife was regularly hitting me over the head and body with anything she could get her hands on, they would crease themselves [die laughing]." 6

Notice that all three of these examples are from the London Times. It is rare for equally reputable American papers to run a story in which men's feelings and experiences about being battered are reported in their own words in such depth. Notice also that the wives are clearly weaker physically, and the men are not the passive, hen-pecked stereotype of a battered man. And note the men's fear that if they reported this to the authorities, not only would they not be believed, they would be ridiculed ("my mates...would crease themselves").

The London Times article spoke of the shock experienced by many police officers at the violence meted out by women. As one officer put it, "We have had to review our attitude. Ten years ago it wasn't thought possible that a woman could beat up a man. Now it's a regular occurrence." 7 In reality, husband beating may have occurred just as often ten years ago, but the unwillingness to consider it as a possibility may have blinded the officers to the regularity of the occurrence.

American newspapers are just beginning to acknowledge the feelings of some boys who are the victims of violence by a girl, but not the feelings of victims who are men. For example, 15 year old Bobby Papiere explains:

One of my parents' lines that I just hate is, "Like your sister can hit you hard," meaning that if my sister hits me, it's no big deal because she can't hit hard. But sometimes it is hard. And my parents don't let me hit her back. So (when they're not around) she'll stand there and hit me — and then she'll say, "I'll tell if you hit me." I hate that.

—Bobby Papiere, 15, Houston, TX 8
Notice that the boy could have told this story to his parents, but didn't. Nowhere is the title Women Can't Hear What Men Don't Say more relevant than to boys' and men's silence about domestic violence.

Why the silence? Think of all the ways we teach boys to become men by enduring pain: Football, rugby, ice hockey, boxing, boot camp, rodeos, car racing. Men learn to call pain "glory"; women learn to call the police.

Why did virtually every culture reward its men for enduring violence? So it would have a cadre of people available to protect it in war. The people considered the most in need of protection were women and children. The sex considered most disposable was men — or males....
The more a man is trained to "be a man," the more he is trained to protect women and children, not hurt women and children. He is trained to volunteer to die before even a stranger is hurt — especially a woman or child. Thus most firefighters are volunteers, and almost all the volunteers are men.

Part of the pressure men put on each other to carry out this mandate is ridiculing a man who complains when he is hurt. We often think that when a man insults another man by calling him a "girl," the insult reflects a contempt for women. No. It reflects a contempt for any man who is unwilling to make himself strong enough to protect someone as precious as a woman. It is an insult to any man unwilling to endure the pain it takes to save a woman's life — including the pain of losing his own life. If you are a woman, imagine someone calling you a "baby" because you cried rather than trying to save your daughter's life at the risk of your own — you would know the term "baby" was meant not to insult babies, but to insult you for being unwilling to protect someone as precious as a baby. The ridicule is pressure to consider ourselves less important than someone even more precious: A baby is more precious than a mother; a woman is more precious than a man.

Those feminists who say that masculinity is about men believing they can batter women display the deepest ignorance possible about men and masculinity. Battering a woman is the male role broken down. A man who batters a woman is like a cross-dresser: he's out of role. In a Stage I survival-based culture, it is the male role to protect women by taking control of survival needs. Which is why, for example, 19th century British and American law required a husband to go to debtors' prison even if it was his wife who spent them into debt. 9 With responsibility came the ability to enforce. The male role was to his family what the role of the military is to a nation: Both are assigned the role of protector; but the power it takes to protect, when broken down, can be abusive. But the abuse is not the role, it is the role broken down. He was not treating her as property, he was taking responsibility for keeping the property intact for the entire family's protection. If he should fail, he's off to jail. That's why I call it the responsibility to discipline, as opposed to male privilege.

In virtually every culture, then, manhood rests on men learning to protect women, not hurt women.

4. Ian Burrell and Lisa Brinkworth, "Police Alarm over Battered Husbands," Sunday Times [London], April 24, 1994, pp. 1 & 6.

5. Ibid.

6. Ibid.

7. Ibid., p. 1. Quote from Inspector Stephen Bloomfield of Kilburn, northwest London.

8. "Sisters Can Hit Hard," from the Teen page of Parade, September 27, 1998.

9. In England and in 19th-century America, a man was imprisoned for his wife's crime. Calvin Bradley v. the State, 156, Mississippi, 1824. See R. J. Walker, Reports of Case Adjudged in the Supreme Court of Mississippi (St. Paul: West Publishing, 1910), p. 73, section 157.

If we look at only police reports and all-female self-help groups, it appears that men perpetrate about 90% of the domestic violence. But when we study male-only self-help groups, we get a different picture: Only 6% of the men involved in domestic violence say they were the perpetrator; 81% said their wives were the perpetrator (13% said it was mutual). 10 So who do we believe?: Ninety percent male perpetrators, or 6%?

Consider the possibility that the percentages are so different because the people we asked were so different — that everyone might be telling their version of the truth. There was something missing: a nationwide domestic violence study of both sexes.

When the first scientific nationwide sample was conducted in 1975 — by Suzanne Steinmetz, Murray Straus and Richard Gelles 11 the researchers could hardly believe their results. The sexes appeared to batter each other about equally. Dozens of questions arose ("Don't women batter only in self-defense?"; "Aren't women hurt more?"). Over a hundred researchers during the next quarter century double-checked via their own studies. About half of these researchers were women, and most of the women who were academics were feminists. Most expected to disprove the Steinmetz, Straus, and Gelles findings.

To their credit, despite their assumptions that men were the abusers, every domestic violence survey done of both sexes over the next quarter century in the U.S. Canada, England, New Zealand and Australia — more than 50 of which are annotated in the Appendix — found one of two things: Women and men batter each other about equally, or women batter men more. In addition, almost all studies found women were more likely to initiate violence, and much more likely to inflict the severe violence. Women themselves acknowledged they are more likely to be violent and to be the initiators of violence. Finally, women were more likely to engage in severe violence that was not reciprocated. The larger and better-designed the study, the more likely the finding that women were significantly more violent.

Studies also make it clear that the women were 70% more likely to use weapons against men than men were to use weapons against women. 12 The weapons women use are more varied and creative than men's, doubtless in compensation for less muscle strength....



Item. "One well-to-do wife I know of turned the tables on her husband. After suffering repeated beatings, she waited until he fell asleep one night, sewed him in the sheets, and broke his bones with a baseball bat."

— Barbara Spencer-Powell; Overland Park, KS 13

The fact that women were more likely to use severe violence does not necessarily mean the men were injured more. I will explain later why we do not yet have valid information about which sex is injured more.

Here are the most basic findings of the most responsible representative nationwide domestic violence study concerning how often wives vs. husbands were victims of severe violence.

Severe "Wife-Beating" vs. Severe "Husband-Beating"

Wife victim
1.9%

Husband victim
4.5%

Explanation. During the year prior to being surveyed, less than 2% of wives and more than 4% of husbands were victims of severe domestic violence. "Severe violence" was measured via Murray Straus' Conflict Tactics Scale as: kicking or biting; being hit with an object or a fist; being beaten up; being threatened with a knife or gun; or being stabbed or wounded. Murray A. Straus, "Measuring Intrafamily Conflict and Violence: The Conflict Tactics (CT) Scales, " Journal of Marriage and the Family, Vol. 41, pp. 75-88.

Source: 1992 National Alcohol and Family Violence Survey, a nationwide representative population sample of 1970 persons, conducted by the Institute for Survey Research (Temple University).See Murray Straus and Glenda Kaufman Kantor, in "Change in Spousal Assault Rates from 1975 to 1992: A Comparison of Three National Surveys in the United States," paper presented at the 13th World Congress of Sociology, Bielefeld, Germany, July 19, 1994.



Much more, and here is the source... (http://www.ejfi.org/dv-3.htm)

Depending on one's point of view and interpretation of the available evidence, male victims of spousal violence, or so-called "battered men," are either the missing persons of the family violence research literature and clinical caseloads or are an over-stated issue concocted to distract attention from battered women.

Source... (http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/article/2036-2559.html)

I met Alan and Faith nearly 25 years ago. I was in the process of interviewing men and women on what were then both a taboo topic and an issue that had been treated as an unmentionable personal trouble—violence in the family. I was one of the first researchers in the United States to attempt to study the extent, patterns, and causes of what I then called ”conjugal violence,” and what today advocates label ”domestic violence.” There was precious little research or information to guide my study—the entire scientific literature was two journal articles. With the exception of the tabloids, the media and daytime talk shows had not yet discovered the dark side of family relations. Both Alan and Faith discussed their experiences with violence in their intimate relations and marriages. The violence was sometimes severe, including a stabbing and broken bones. And yet, Alan and Faith ended up as mere footnotes in my initial book, The Violent Home (Sage Publications, 1974). I admit now and knew then that I had overlooked the stories of Alan and Faith. The reason why their stories were relegated to mere notes was they did not fit the perceptual framework of my research. Although I titled my study an examination of family or conjugal violence, my main focus, the issue I hoped to raise consciousness about, was violence toward women. Alan, as it turned out, had never hit his wife. The broken bones and abrasions that occurred in his home were inflicted by his wife. Faith was a victim of violence; her husband, ex-husband, and boyfriends had struck her and abused her numerous times. These events were dutifully counted and reported in my book and subsequent articles. Faith’s situation was the focus of my article ”Abused Wives: Why Do They Stay?” However, Faith’s violence, which included stabbing her husband while he read the morning paper, was reported as a small quote in my book, with little analysis or discussion. In my first study of family violence, I had overlooked violence toward men. I would not, and could not, ever do that again.

Source... (http://tsw.odyssey.on.ca/~balancebeam/DomesticViolence/gelles.htm)

[Leslie]

a) Not all women have "poor me/us syndrome". I detest being lumped in with those who do.

b) Physical violence in a relationship is wrong, no matter the sex, and it isn't worse when it is one sex over the other.

c) I have a sense that women are more willing to use weapons ie baseball bats and can/do harm their spouses as much if not more.

We have known 2 couples, (that we were aware of but we suspect more) one a woman beaten couple, and one a man beaten couple, the man definitely had it worse than the woman, more severe injuries definitely, weapons involved, and where the woman would fight back, the man wouldn't. Because you can't hit a woman, right?

[HomeLAN]

Gonz, I don't necessarily agree with you on much, but I agree with you on this.

Give up 2 new cars & the overpriced house & all the latest toys & that is not true. Make a decision that one of you stays home to raise your child & the other works to support the family. That's what we're doing. That's also why I soend so much time on the computer. I can't afford to do much else. If you have kids kids, why allow strangers to raise them?

I got promoted recently, so we can pull our lifestyle on my salary, but if I hadn't been, we still would've been OK. Why? Because we saved like mad mothers for 3 YEARS before getting pregnant, just to be sure we could make it happen right.

[Gato_Solo]

That's because you were disciplined and smart, HomeLAN. Most folks have a child before they are properly prepared... ;)

now, back to the topic...


Jack Welsh lives with a ticking time bomb.

Sooner or later, he knows it’s going to go off.

But if he leaves his home because of the time bomb, he leaves behind children and a wife he loves who may become its victims. If he tries to defuse the bomb, he’ll more than likely be arrested and “defused” in its place.

All he can do, he says, is lock himself away from the time bomb when it starts to tick, and hope it will defuse itself.

Jack Welsh lives in Hell. And no one, it seems, can rescue him.

“I have been married 10 years,” he says. “I did not consider [the relationship] abusive until about two months ago. At that time I began reading about [domestic violence]. Up until that point, I never considered the throwing of objects, emotional abuse, hitting, or shoving to be a real form of violence.

“I never fight back,” he adds, “because I don’t want to go to jail.”

Jack suffers the same humiliation and abuse suffered by thousands of men in the United States each year, according to statistics ranging from the 1998 National Violence Against Women survey to Dr. Richard Gelles’ report on male victims, the “Missing Persons of Domestic Violence.” He is berated in front of his wife’s children, taunted with threats of arrest for made-up crimes, pushed, hit, and struck with thrown objects on a regular basis, all by his wife of 10 years.

He is, in legal terms, a victim of domestic abuse. But because he is a man, and because of perceptions by society and, apparently, many in law enforcement, Jack feels he has no legal recourse and no hope for assistance in escape.

And he’s not alone.

According to that 1998 survey, 835,000 men in the United States that year suffered physical abuse at the hands of their spouses. That figure means men accounted for 40 percent of the total number of victims of domestic abuse in the U.S. In both previous and subsequent years, studies by other agencies indicated that men and women tend to initiate violence against each other in nearly equal number during domestic spats, and some studies have even suggested that men are these days more likely to be the victims of domestic abuse than are women.

But most of them, like Jack, don’t recognize the abuse until it’s too late. And when it finally does dawn on them that they’ve become victims of domestic abuse, experts say they are often treated with scorn or refused help by authorities and those who run shelters.

“Men’s failure to identify the abuse they experience from women as domestic violence is largely due to the misframing of the problem in gender-biased terms,” says Marc Angelucci of Stop Abuse For Everyone (SAFE), an organization dedicated to assisting the unrecognized victims of domestic violence.

“They covered up the data and ignored half the victims,” he adds. “Consequently, there is no outreach or shelter for male victims. They often don’t even recognize it when it happens, let alone call the police or seek help. Those that do seek help are often treated as abusers and denied access to shelters.”

Understandably, however, Jack Welsh remains uncomforted by the fact that seemingly legitimate research has suggested that he—and any other man—can be a victim of domestic abuse. Society and law enforcement tell him that men aren’t supposed to be victims. And if they claim to be, they are perhaps trying to cover themselves for their own crimes.

“I am severely ashamed to have to admit that I am a victim,” Jack says. “I don’t tell anybody. It is a secret.”

In fact, Jack knows what will happen if he doesn’t keep his stories of abuse to himself, or if he happens to lash out in self-defense.

She’ll cry.

He’ll be arrested.

It’s happened before.

The Birds, The Bees, and Society’s Mirror

Time and again the stories are told in Internet men’s forums. A woman commits an act of violence against a man, sometimes to the point where he must be hospitalized, and the man is arrested and charged.

Woman’s tears, real or no, carry a great deal of weight with law enforcement and victim’s advocates, say these victims of both domestic violence and false accusations.

Diane Taylor knows this difference between boys and girls. She also knows that men like Jack are taught at an early age one very specific lesson regarding relationships between the sexes: “You don’t hit girls.”

And at one time in her life, she says, she used that lesson to her advantage.

“In my younger days I took a swing at my boyfriend,” she says. “Boy, I thought I was big stuff. I took advantage of the fact that his momma raised him not to hit women.

“I don’t know of any woman who was told as a child ‘don’t hit boys,’ ” she continues. “I think women think it’s generally OK to hit men. They don’t realize that it’s belittling and humiliating, especially to be struck in the face.”

Armed with that information about their masculine peers, some women expect to be able to get their way by using force themselves, or threatening their partners with false accusations of violence and arrest if they happen to stand up for themselves.

Diane says she discovered first-hand exactly how harmful domestic violence against a man could be, not only for the abused, but also for the abuser.

“I was 17 and he was 18,” she explains. “[It was] our first venture on our own. We had no money. I was living with my boyfriend and I was about five months pregnant, a very angry and unhappy person.”

One fateful night, Diane’s boyfriend had been out drinking and, while she was at home asleep, another girl called for him.

“She laughed at me when I asked who she was,” Diane says. “He came home. I was livid. He offered no explanation as to how this girl had even gotten the phone number, and told me to ‘let it go.’

“We started name-calling, and I slapped him across the face,” she continues. “He grabbed my arms and pushed me back, then told me to go to bed. I broke some dishes, made a mess of the apartment. I didn’t feel bad about this until years later.”

In fact, Diane says she not only did not feel bad about hitting her ex-boyfriend, but she also felt justified in doing so.

“It didn’t really hurt him, so I wasn’t really doing anything wrong,” she says.

The second time she lashed out at him, though, Diane says she felt something of her boyfriend’s pain and humiliation.

“About a year after the first incident, we had separated, and we were arguing about money,” she explains. “He said I didn’t need any money for our child. I ran across the room and slapped him as he was getting up from a chair. I almost knocked him over.”

As she stood over him, hands on her hips, Diane’s ex-boyfriend rose from his chair and slapped her across the face.

“Keep it up,” he said, “and I’ll do it again. Doesn’t feel so good, does it?”

Diane allows that it didn’t.

“I never tried to hit a man again,” she says. “Boys hit hard.”

Unfortunately for Jack, though, both Diane and Angelucci agree that her dawning of understanding is rare, and that violence against men by women really isn’t taken seriously by those in authority, or even society in general, women or men.

Last week, for instance, Lynn Johnston’s daily comic strip “For Better or For Worse” featured a story about one of its male characters who was dating two women at the same time. The women found out about his two-timing and confronted him with it.

Cowed and ashamed, the young man in the April 2 strip apologizes for the way he has treated both young women and explains to them that he’s very much in love with both of them.

In the final panel of the strip, both women are beating him over the head.

Although only a comic strip, the story reveals one of Angelucci’s main concerns about male versus female victims of domestic abuse.

“When women are attacked by men, we rush to their aid and condemn the man,” he says. “That’s the way it should be. But when men are attacked by women, we laugh. We don’t take it seriously. It’s a ‘man bites dog’ story. But domestic violence against men is anything but rare. And pain is pain. Violence and pain have no gender.”

Double-standards Behind the Badge

For Jack Welsh, who has sought everything from counseling to escape to solve his problem, Diane’s ex-boyfriend’s self-defense solution is more likely to get him arrested than to snap Mrs. Welsh awake. Mrs. Welsh, in fact, has almost complete control over Jack.

She can make him run for his life, and, if she bruises herself in the process, she can easily have him tossed in jail.

On the night Mrs. Welsh near-fatally overdosed on the sleep aid Tamezepam, Jack found himself torn between getting her the medical attention she needed and being arrested for the bruises she had sustained in her collapse, or trying to care for her at home, hoping against hope that she wouldn’t die before the drug—which she had ingested at twice the maximum dosage—ran its course through her system.

“She literally collapsed in front of the children,” Jack says. “I have never been so scared in all my life. There is no amount of education or counseling that prepared me [for this]. She was so violent and self-destructive that I required the help of the children to restrain her for her own safety.”

Because his wife had on a previous occasion accused him of domestic abuse, Jack believed that if he took Mrs. Welsh to the hospital he would likely face jail time as a result of the injuries she sustained in her collapse. Rather than face the uncertainty of his freedom again, which could potentially leave the children without care and his wife strapped up in the hospital by herself, Jack chose to put her to bed and tend to her himself.

“Instead of seeking medical help, I tried to make her comfortable and prayed to God all night that she wouldn’t die,” he says. “I made certain that she didn’t suffocate and kept her comfortable in the bedroom. I assured the children that everything was fine, that she was just resting. I never told the children that she was overdosing on a drug.”

The next morning, when Mrs. Welsh awakened, still somewhat intoxicated from the sleep aid, Jack tried to confront her about the overdose.

“She threw water on me,” he says carefully, wording the story as he might tell it in a courtroom. “I left the room as I had been trained [by psychological counselors]. I was afraid that she would throw the glasses because she had thrown so many things in the past. I was trying to isolate myself in the bedroom for protection. She came after me with the glasses and was making threatening motions. As I tried to escape, she dropped the glasses and started trying to restrain me and stop me from removing myself.”

In his state, Jack has the right by law to use a matching amount of physical force in self-defense when under attack and “a reasonable fear for his safety.”

“I was clearly under attack,” he says. “So, I used matching force to push her back off me in an attempt to remove myself as my counselors have taught me. I was very careful not to use too much, but I could not safely remove myself and close the door with her all over me.”

According to Jack, Mrs. Welsh tripped over the glasses she had dropped on the carpet.

“She bruised her head from her stumbling and falling,” he says, “and then she dialed 911.”

From there, the nightmare spiraled.

Jack was arrested in spite of his story, and the police, according to him, refused to give Mrs. Welsh a sobriety test, or to have her tested for the sleep aid overdose. They also refused to take photographs of the bruises on his arms, which most attorneys refer to as “defensive wounds.”

“If I were female and claiming to have been attacked, they would have photographed me without hesitation,” he says. “I was arrested and taken to jail.”

Angelucci says it’s a story he’s heard all too often.

“This man’s experience with the police is a common story among male victims,” he explains. “Although there is not much research on gender bias among police officers, countless stories among male victims attest to being arrested when [they] called for help. To be fair, a number of women have claimed the same thing. But the women’s stories are sought out and listened to by government agencies. The men’s stories are never heard until advocacy groups put up a fight, as Stop Abuse For Everyone has in Los Angeles.”

There is no doubt that there are women who are arrested for committing domestic violence, according to Angelucci. In fact, actress Tawny Kitaen—most famous for her role in Tom Hanks’ Bachelor Party and a few music videos by British rock band Whitesnake—was herself arrested last week after she allegedly kicked her husband, Cleveland Indians pitcher Chuck Finley, with her high heels while the couple was driving home from dinner.

The Associated Press reports that Kitaen allegedly kicked Finley, twisted his ear, and stomped his foot down on the accelerator during an argument. Police arrested Kitaen after a 911 call, an investigation into which turned up abrasions on Finley, apparently from the altercation.

Reports from the Associated Press, Reuters, and ABC News conflict on whether the 911 call was placed by a third party who overheard the argument, or by someone in the house, who hung up without saying anything. All three sources, though, indicate that it was police who determined a domestic violence charge was in order, and not Finley.

Kitaen’s arrest aside, some observers say the case proves their perceptions of how men in victim situations are treated. Since her arrest, Finely and Kitaen have been the butts of late night television joke monologues, advocates say, which is proof of society’s perception that violence against men by women is funny. They also point to the fact that it was the police, and not Finley, who filed charges as evidence of men’s (and society’s) perception that men are not supposed to be victims, and are afraid to seek help.

“We need a nationwide awareness campaign to reverse this,” Angelucci says, “as we’ve done for women the past 30 years.”

The Invisible Wound and the Road Out

Jack Welsh needs no awareness campaign, at least not anymore. He knows he is a victim and he knows he cannot ask for help.

So what can he do?

From experience, Jack has some advice, but no comfort, for other men who may be victims of both domestic violence by their partners and false accusations of the same: “I would advise absolute silence if placed under false arrest. I would advise not speaking to any sort of doctors because they will try to have you arrested, and I would advise them to leave if the problem becomes too severe.”

Not everyone entirely agrees.

According to Trudy Schuett, domestic violence victims’ advocate and publisher of The DesertLight Journal, Jack’s is a scenario that’s all too common among male victims of domestic violence, but not seeking help at all may create more of a problem.

“I’ve seen much this same situation so many times I’ve lost count,” she says. “He is doing what he has to do, even though they are not the ‘best’ things, either for him or his wife. [Jack’s state] is typically a bad state for men at many levels. However, it is home to one of the few shelters that provide services for men.”

Schuett says the one thing Jack (and all male victims of domestic violence) could do differently is to begin documenting instances of abuse by his wife.

“If at all possible, he should also check with family members and friends that may be willing to verify abusive incidents,” she says. “Having witnesses can be helpful, though the tendency in an abusive situation is to withdraw from social contacts. Female offenders aren’t as good at hiding their problem as men are, and sometimes a woman will ‘go off’ with others present.”

As for Jack's wife, Schuett says she worries about Mrs. Welsh’s apparent drug problem in light of the fact that, according to Jack, Mrs. Welsh is also a preschool teacher.

“His wife needs treatment for her drug problem and should not be in a setting with small children,” she explains. “She is a danger to herself as well as the children, and he is not doing her any favors by allowing her behavior to continue if there’s anything he can do to encourage her to seek treatment. Her violent behavior may at any time erupt against the children, bringing up a liability issue.”

Angelucci and Diane Taylor concur.

“I don’t advise not talking to a doctor,” Angelucci says. “If one is injured, not telling a doctor can be dangerous and can hurt one’s ability to adequately document the assault. One can tell a doctor they were assaulted and explain where they feel pain without giving details about who, how, why, or where.

“They can also request a witness, like a family member, a nurse, or another doctor, be present when they explain it,” he adds. “Or they may want to record it, if possible. Afterwards, they should be sure to visit their own doctor whom they trust and be re-examined.”

Diane adds that psychological counseling may be of benefit as well.

“I would tell a victim of either sex that if your spouse is going to hit you then they are going to hit and bully your children, even your pets,” she says. “Getting counseling is a great way to help yourself get on the right track. Always let at least one person know what’s really going on. That way if your partner really hurts you, you will have someone who knows the truth.”

On Jack’s arrest under the apparently false accusation that he, and not his wife, actually committed the act of violence, Diane has this to add: “There should be tougher laws for people who make false reports of domestic violence. Education for police and human services is vital.”

For Jack, the toughest question he faces is why he doesn’t simply leave the relationship. The simple answer is that he’s still in love with his wife, and believes she can be redeemed.

“I believe that my wife is finally beginning to realize how her actions impact the children,” he says. “My biggest problem is getting the psychological and medical community to stop blaming me for her collapses. When I tell them that she has held a gun to her head, they need to stop blaming me and help her. Damn them for ignoring me. This has done nothing but make the problem worse. I desperately need them to realize, admit, and help me confront my wife on the issue of DV.”

And on the issue of redemption, Diane, who once struck her boyfriend so hard she almost knocked him over, is in complete agreement.

“It’s true some people never change,” she says. “But I think it has a lot to do with how a person was raised. People seek out what they are familiar with. I think it is a matter of education for our younger generation. I think it would help kids to recognize their own patterns.”

Likewise, Diane has some words for abusive women who use the stereotypes of strong men and weak women to obtain ultimate control over the men in their lives.

“When I write in my journal regarding this subject and read back through it, I sound so anti-women,” she says. “I'm not. I just think that making your way through life on boobs and tears is a terrible waste of a person's soul.”



Source... (http://edge.net/~nitemist/domestic_violence2.html)

and why is this funny when a picture of a woman being abused is not?

http://www.fborfw.com/strip_fix/archive/02_04/images/0402.gif

SAN FRANCISCO -- A federal appeals court backed away Wednesday from a decision seeming to support a desperate woman's one-day sentence for trying to murder her husband.

In 1997, after a stormy seven years of marriage, Working drove onto a military base in Washington state and phoned her spouse. She told him her van had broken down, stranding her and their two daughters, and asked him to pick up the girls.

She opened fire as soon as Michael Working arrived. When he got out of his car and ducked into the bushes, she searched him out with her headlights and shot him again. She hit him in the head with the gun several times before he hit her in the face and escaped.

She pleaded guilty in federal court, which had jurisdiction because the crime occurred on a military base.

U.S. District Judge Jack Tanner sentenced her to five years for using a gun in a violent crime but just one day for the assault. The extreme departure from the federal sentencing guidelines was warranted, he said, by her depression and desperate fear that her husband would take away the children in their impending divorce.

The 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals ruled two years ago that Tanner had the discretion to consider such factors, but it returned the case to him for an explanation of the extent of his departure from sentencing guidelines.

Now, however, the appeals court has rejected Tanner's explanation.

He made too much of some factors -- such as Brenda Working's depression -- and he should not have considered other factors at all -- including the separate sentence she would have to serve for using a gun, said the 9th Circuit.

The circuit court sent the case back to federal district court in Washington for resentencing, but not to Tanner.

The case should be reassigned to another judge, wrote Circuit Judge Barry Silverman of Phoenix, because Tanner "did not accept the fact that Michael Working is the victim in this case," and Tanner "would be unlikely to set aside considerations of (Brenda) Working's sex."

Silverman also wrote the 9th Circuit opinion in 2000 that said Tanner did not exceed his authority.

The circuit court refused the government's request to set a minimum of 27 months for the new assault sentence.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Source... (http://www.sacbee.com/content/news/crime/story/2236628p-2637643c.html)

[greenfreak]

Leslie, I agree with you on your three points, especially the first one. The only people that I know who were battered in a relationship were women though. Any men I know that might be in a situation like that would probably be too ashamed to admit it.

I can't help but notice that Gato glazed over your reply and continued posting articles and sources. Is this a one man show? :P ;)

[Leslie]

:laugh: I'm surprised you found them, being buried betwixt the encyclopaedia segments as they are :D

[greenfreak]

Don't interrupt him. He's on a roll.

:)

[Gato_Solo]

Actually, leslie, I did see your 3 points, but, as GF pointed out, I'm on a roll. :P ...and I don't stick my tongue out unless I intend to use it... ;) :D

[Leslie]

:licklips: me either... :D

[Gato_Solo]

As long as you don't abuse me, you can surely use me... ;)

[Leslie]

abuse only on request... ;) :D

[Gato_Solo]

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang:

[Leslie]

:hairbang: :headbang:

[unclehobart]

*raises hand* 'request!'

[Leslie]

something like :whip: ? :D

[Gato_Solo]

Originally posted by unclehobart
*raises hand* 'request!'


I am the houseboy in this forum. :D

[Professur]

Bumped .... simply because it's so seldom that Gonz is so totally, completely correct that it's worth an encore.

[Gonz]

bite me ya old goat...but it is damned good huh :D

can she go to work now?