View Full Version : Gay prom date banned
From CP24 (http://www.pulse24.com/News/Top_Story/20020506-004/page.asp)
In order to get a prom date, Marc Hall has a court date. The gay Oshawa teen has taken his fight to have his boyfriend accompany him to a dance to the Ontario Superior Court in Whitby. The Durham Catholic School Board has already vetoed the idea, claiming it’s against the homosexual lifestyle.
It's gone to court today. The Catholic school boards are publicly funded here in Ontario.
What do you think? Should he be allowed to bring his date?
greenfreak
5/08/02, 09:53am
What does this kid expect with a Catholic school board for God's sake?! (pun intended ;) ) The quote is actually wrong too. If he didn't take his boyfriend to the prom, that would be against the homosexual lifestyle. ;)
I've already voiced my opinion on homosexuality elsewhere... I see nothing wrong with it. Flame me if you will, but seeing as I don't think it's morally wrong, I don't see a problem with him bringing his boyfriend to the prom.
Gato_Solo
5/08/02, 09:56am
Publically funded, or not, this kid KNEW the rules before he tried, and KNOWS the stand the Catholic Church has on homosexuality. He has a right to bring his date to anyplace he wants by the law, but, my personal opinion is that he's just trying to get publicity, and his 15 minutes of fame...which he'll get whether he wins his case or not. Just another attempt to shove his sexuality in other peoples faces.
outside looking in
5/08/02, 11:16am
:eek:
outside looking in
5/08/02, 11:16am
:gay:
unclehobart
5/08/02, 01:55pm
If the school took federal money, the school becomes a slavehold to the rules and guidelines of the government as well as provincial standards. If the government or province has no clear cut guidelines as to the legality of such a thing, the decision reverts to the school. If the government says its ok and the school digs in its heels they would be subject to mass fines and loss of said fed monies. Its just a varaint of dancing with the devil.
To me the teen in question is doing it as a political statement. He could have just brought his boy toy along as a friend and nothing much would have come of it. He probably announced it as a gay date knowing full well that it would be splashed across the headlines. Motive? unknown.
Originally posted by greenfreak
I don't think it's morally wrong, I don't see a problem with him bringing his boyfriend to the prom.
:bikr:
unclehobart
5/08/02, 02:56pm
From what I've been seeing in the papaers lately, it looks as if a rather sizable chunk of the catholic church is going to burn in hell as well.
Originally posted by unclehobart
From what I've been seeing in the papaers lately, it looks as if a rather sizable chunk of the catholic church is going to burn in hell as well.
:thumbup: :rofl2:
Gato_Solo
5/08/02, 03:28pm
Only about 5% of active priests, with active being the operative word. Most of whats being bandied about now is media hype. :mad:
You forgot about all of the higher ups and peers who knew about this and withheld it, shuffling them to other parishes to create more trauma. They have "sinned" themselves.
even if the kid is doing it just for his 15 mins of fame i still believe that it's something that needs to be done. homosexual people should have the same rights that anyone else has, they should not be discriminated against just b/c what they do makes the people that make the rules uncomfortable. & as far as the homosexuals will burn in the eternal fire of hell, when precisely did god come down & tell you that? did you get a fax or a memo? cause i didn't. let me go ahead & give the standard response to that the bible says so. not correct, your religion's interpretation of the bible says that. there is no way for you to know if that interpretation is correct or not, so why do you get to smash other people over the head with it? where you there when it was originally penned? nope, didn't think so. i have known homosexual people that would give you their last dollar if it would help you out & good christians that would steal the shirt off your back if you happened to look away for a moment. the whole point of this rant is this: NO ONE has the right to judge any other person or to tell them how to live their life. & doesn't the bible say that god loves EVERYONE? not just white upper-class hetrosexuals. also you might want to remember the golden rule that jesus imparted to us do un to others as you would have them do un to you. so you might want to think next time you start condemning people b/c you wouldn't like it very much if someone came up to you on the street & said that you were going to burn in hell just b/c you don't look a certain way or act a certain way.
unclehobart
5/08/02, 04:03pm
Your argument is flawed by the use of the word think. Its a concept that is rarely used these days.
btw- stop holding back. Tell us how you really feel. :)
yeah, i know. i really kinda let loose. but when people say stuff like that it really just tweaks me the wrong way.
I see this along the same venue of homesexual marriages. The state has no right nor authority to stop them, The church on the other has all the rights to do so. If that school took federal dollars, at least in the US, they have become a publically funded institution & must act accordingly. If they didn't they are a private, religious institution with all the rights accorded. Which translates to; if you want federal tax dollars, do as the government insists, if not, do whatever isn't illegal.
lorrimar-look up leviticus 18-20
If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
not my words
Gato_Solo
5/08/02, 04:09pm
Geez...where can I start? As I've stated earlier, and on other message boards, what a person does to, or with, themselves is none of my business until they MAKE it my business. The kid in the topic has a right to bring his boyfriend to the prom. He does not have the right to disrupt society by doing so. When I went to my high school prom, my date and I were the only ones of my race there. I didn't scream [i][b] at the top of my lungs when I entered the dayum place...and, yes, I was uncomfortable at times, but I persevered with charm and wit (I used to have those), and didn't have to resort to confrontation to get my point across. Why does he feel the ned?
lorrimar-look up leviticus 18-20
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
not my words
very true, however what about everything in leviticus 4? all the rules that a priest must follow when atoning for sins?
3 if the priest that is anointed do sin according to the sin of the people; then let him bring for his sin, which he hath sinned, a young bullock without blemish unto the LORD for a sin offering.
4 And he shall bring the bullock unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD; and shall lay his hand upon the bullock's head, and kill the bullock before the LORD.
when are all these priests going to start dragging bulls up to church so that they can begin the sacrificing? that's the problem, we follow the rules that we want to & the ones that we think make sense & then just throw out the other ones, or even worse twist them around as we see fit. who decided to keep leviticus 18-20, but not leviticus 4 3-4. but i suppose that's just my oppinion & i could be wrong.
I don't hate homosexuals, I hate homosexuality. It is sin. I don't care if that guy takes his boyfriend to the prom; he'll probably win the court case, but then the school would cancel the prom because it is a Catholic school and they frown upon homosexuality.
greenfreak
5/08/02, 05:42pm
Originally posted by unclehobart
From what I've been seeing in the papaers lately, it looks as if a rather sizable chunk of the catholic church is going to burn in hell as well.
:laugh:
Originally posted by Gato_Solo
Only about 5% of active priests, with active being the operative word.
That we know of. :eek:
Oh, so it's only alright to practice homosexuality if you're a priest? :eek:
:D
Justintime
5/08/02, 08:40pm
Originally posted by sbcanada
Originally posted by greenfreak
I don't think it's morally wrong, I don't see a problem with him bringing his boyfriend to the prom.
:bikr:
if you were indeed god, i'd believe you, but i know who he is ;)
outside looking in
5/09/02, 12:23am
Originally posted by unclehobart
From what I've been seeing in the papaers lately, it looks as if a rather sizable chunk of the catholic church is going to burn in hell as well.
:rofl3: :headbang:
Justintime
5/09/02, 01:16am
:rofl3::rofl3::rofl3::rofl3::rofl3::rofl3::rofl3:: rofl3::rofl3:
GOD ALMIGHTY
5/09/02, 01:25am
Originally posted by sbcanada
Homosexuals will burn in the eternal fire of hell. God says so :biker:
What I said was it's an abomination. Let Me decide who is unfit for eternal salvation if you please. :biker:
If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
That means hell. :D
Gato_Solo
5/09/02, 09:16am
Nope. That means stoning. The Old Testament way of punishment for deadly sin.
As for what verses to keep, and which to throw away, nobody advocated the priests not bringing cattle to the altar for sacrifice (which is what that actually boils down to). Of course, they must be put to death afterward to protect them from further sin...
Update: The gay guy wins the court case, he's allowed to bring his bf to the prom...
good for him.
as for this:
Originally posted by Gato_Solo
The kid in the topic has a right to bring his boyfriend to the prom. He does not have the right to disrupt society by doing so.
You're right, the kid does not have the right to disrupt society by bringing his boyfriend to the prom.
The problem is, it shouldn't of been a disruption for him to do so in the first place. If it were already socially acceptable to be gay he could of waltzed in there and nobody would of cared.
However, what he's fighting for (and won) is the ability for the next gay student to take his/her boy/girlfriend to prom and it not be a disruption.
Again, good for him!
Originally posted by sbcanada
Update: The gay guy wins the court case, he's allowed to bring his bf to the prom...
YEA!!!
I hope they bring protection
Gato_Solo
5/13/02, 08:49am
He won his case, and he brings his date to the prom...big, fat, hairy deal. That wasn't the issue I was getting at. I said that at the beginning. He sued, not because he was forbidden to bring his date to the prom, nor for the rights of future gays to go to THEIR proms. He sued to get attention and to shove his sexuality in peoples faces. There are many times I could have used my race for the same kind of confrontational exhibit, but I refrained. Why, you may ask? Because it would only serve to alienate me, and my cause from the public eye. He had a chance to show everyone at the prom that he, and his date, were actually nice people, but, instead, he chose to start a ruckus. Think that one over...
Originally posted by Gato_Solo He sued to get attention and to shove his sexuality in peoples faces.
I'm sorry, but how do you know that? Wait a minute...you don't.
Originally posted by Gato_Solo my personal opinion is that he's just trying to get publicity, and his 15 minutes of fame
Originally posted by Gato_Solo He had a chance to show everyone at the prom that he, and his date, were actually nice people
So if they are banned from going to the prom, how are they going to prove that they are nice people? It would seem that no matter what they did you would call it a ruckus.
And as far as this goes:
Originally posted by Gato_Solo There are many times I could have used my race for the same kind of confrontational exhibit, but I refrained. Why, you may ask? Because it would only serve to alienate me, and my cause from the public eye.
If someone really had wronged you because of your race, you're not doing your cause any good by sitting back and doing nothing. Especially if the reason is to keep from being alienated. That's like saying it's ok for people to walk all over you just because you don't want them not to like you.
The kid's got balls for standing up to the system, getting his issue out front and winning his case. Don't hate him because he did something you could never do.
Now, you think that one over.
The kid's got balls for standing up to the system, getting his issue out front and winning his case.
i agree, it's great that something is being done to bring problems like this to the public's attention. if no one ever did anything like this, nothing is going to change. he gets a big WELL DONE!! from me.
Gato_Solo
5/14/02, 09:53am
Not to argue with you too much on issues that you obviously know nothing about, but, to put it succinctly, when dealing with racism or sexism, the only thing you get when you act like the young man in question is noteriety, whether you win, as was his case, or not. You may see what he did as a great victory for his civil rights, but I see it as him making a martyr of himself. As for me not behaving in a confrontational manner during my prom, I have this to say...
My cause was actually helped much more by diplomacy than you, and your intellect, can ever know. The tow, or three, people who caused the problem were taken care of...believe me, and the rest of us had a great time at the prom. What has to be learned is that the ones who have a problem with the group, rarely have the problem with the individual. Put any ethnic or gender-based, or religious problem on a level where the two opposite sides have to be alone with it, and there are only two outcomes. Peace, and death. Nobody likes death, so you are forced to deal with your internal problems, thus, you stop seeing a group and start seeing individuals. Maybe this is all too complex for you, but, when you stop with your cranial-rectal inversion, you'll see the big picture.
The prom was right after the court decision, and the guy hasn't been out of the press since :rolleyes:
GOD ALMIGHTY
5/14/02, 09:38pm
Originally posted by Gato_Solo
Nobody likes death
There are a few Palestinians & a some Babylonians I could introduce you to. :biker:
No, lets argue.
First, as a gay man I happen to have plenty of knowledge on this particular issue. More so then I think you would.
Try being a part of the one group almost everybody hates. I can think of no other group that has less rights then homosexuals.
For example:
We can't get married.
If you're religious it's hard to find a church that will accept you. (Isn't that why the kid had to go to court in the first place?)
It's hard to find jobs that offer "Domestic Partner" benefits.
We have to use the term "Domestic Partner"
In Florida, where I live, we can't adopt and I, for one, would like to.
Holding hands or showing affection in public is likely to get you beat up.
My personal favorite is trying to get people to understand that we don't go around molesting children or trying to recruit people to be gay.
Several months ago, at my old job in a local mall, my boyfriend came to visit me. When he walked in I greeted him by saying, "Hello baby." and kissed him on the cheek. When I did that the woman beside me grabbed her daughter, pulled her towards her, then leaned across the counter to make a derogatory comment to my boss. Ironically, my boss is gay as well and happened to be partly responsible for me and my boyfriend being together.
Try having friends, or better yet parents who disown you because you choose to find love and companionship with someone of the same gender. I've had both. All of my friends from high school quit talking to me after I came out. It was 3 years before my dad would even talk to me, and if I hadn't of accidentally run into him at a restaurant a couple of months ago he'd never of met my boyfriend.
So you see, I have some knowledge of the issue.
I do see what Marc Hall did as a victory for his civil rights as well as mine, but nothing so grand as to make a martyr of himself. But even if he did, martyr's cause changes. Jesus let himself be crucified for what he believed in and people have lived for Jesus' cause for the last 2000 years.
As for my intellectual capacity, well, it seems kinda sad that you resorted to such cheap shots in an effort to get your point across, but allow me the opportunity to enlighten you. My IQ is 140. In 6th grade I had the reading comprehension of a Sophomore college student. I took advanced honors classes all through high school. I participated in several intellectual debates as well as many intellectual competitions. I'm sure I'm qualified to handle a conversation with you.
So, lets talk about this part of your last post...
What has to be learned is that the ones who have a problem with the group, rarely have the problem with the individual.
Which is it for you? You seem to have a problem with the individual, do you have a problem with homosexuals as a group as well? I understand that many people have problems with a group of one type of person. This is due to stereotyping, something I'm sure you're familiar with. I also understand that those same people are able to overcome those problems on a person to person basis.
That is what needs to be overcome. People should accept the group as a whole and take up their problems with the individuals that cause them. I shouldn't have to prove to someone I'm worthy of their friendship. It should be safe to assume that everyone you meet is nice until they prove otherwise.
It is not I who has the problem seeing the big picture, it is anyone who would rather hate a group of people because of a stereotype. It is not I who has the problem seeing the big picture, it is anyone who has to be forced into some "trapped in small spaces" situation in order to overcome their differences with another group of people.
The big picture is to realize that we all start from the same basic group. We all are human. We are all entitled to the same rights as everybody else.
It's easy to forget about the forest if all you see is the tree in front of you.
One last thing, since you seem to think that the way you handled your situation was the correct way to do so, why don't you enlighten us with your wisdom so we can all see the error of our ways.
I'm looking forward to it...
[b]
Originally posted by [b]
For example:
We can't get married.
If you're religious it's hard to find a church that will accept you. (Isn't that why the kid had to go to court in the first place?)
It's hard to find jobs that offer "Domestic Partner" benefits.
We have to use the term "Domestic Partner"
In Florida, where I live, we can't adopt and I, for one, would like to.
Holding hands or showing affection in public is likely to get you beat up.
My personal favorite is trying to get people to understand that we don't go around molesting children or trying to recruit people to be gay.[b]
Before I read the rest of the post let me start here.
Can't marry-sux. It should be a civil ceremony though. Since, according to the bible, homosexuality is an abberation. that takes care of 1 & 2.
Domestic Partner benefits-I don't want to break the news to you but hetero couples can't get them either. Untill #1 changes, this shouldn't either.
You shouldn't be able to adopt a newborn. An older, hard to place child on the other hand, is silly.
Showing affection in public: a kiss on the cheek is no big deal. A long drawn out tonsil touching probe is outlandish, same with hetero couples. Nobody wants to see that
lastly-some people have a preconceived notion about homosexuality. Sorry, can't change stupidity. However, the fems amongst you certainly don't help. I have a couple of gay friends who are gay in the bedroom & just guys everywhere else. Then the fags come out & prance & queen their way into an ass kicking & whine it's not fair. Who cares what your sex life is...but act like a man.
now, back to reading the rest of the post.
Response in line with text:
Can't marry-sux. It should be a civil ceremony though. Since, according to the bible, homosexuality is an abberation. that takes care of 1 & 2.
Personally, I don't care about having a wedding ceremony. I feel that if there is truly a bond of love between two people, all it should take is the asking. If the other person says yes, then you're married. Forget about all the rest and be happy together. But there are those who would like a ceremony, who am I to say they can't?
It's still too bad about #2. I don't prescribe to any written religious philosophy. I do my own thing when it comes what I believe. But for those who do follow, it must be hard to believe in something and be cast out. I just can't see how any loving/merciful god would be choosy about his followers.
You shouldn't be able to adopt a newborn. An older, hard to place child on the other hand, is silly.
This I don't understand. The only argument I could come up with that would agree with your statement would be two men are incapable of breastfeeding a newborn baby. True. However, I would point out that many couples that adopt do so because they are unable to have children on their own. This being the case, the chances of the mother being able to breastfeed are just slightly better then mine. ;)
Showing affection in public: a kiss on the cheek is no big deal. A long drawn out tonsil touching probe is outlandish, same with hetero couples. Nobody wants to see that
Agreed.
lastly-some people have a preconceived notion about homosexuality. Sorry, can't change stupidity. However, the fems amongst you certainly don't help. I have a couple of gay friends who are gay in the bedroom & just guys everywhere else. Then the fags come out & prance & queen their way into an ass kicking & whine it's not fair. Who cares what your sex life is...but act like a man.
I used to feel the same way. I was gay in the bedroom, straight to the world. And for the most part I still am. I also had a real problem with the fems and queens. I thought that it was way too overboard. Until I worked with one. He was one of the nicest guys that worked there. Would help anybody. We we're really good friends. I realized that he was true to himself, and he didn't care what people thought.
After that I started hanging out with more of the guys I had avoided before. I've met some really nice people. It takes a lot of strength to be yourself. These guys have some of the biggest balls I know. :D
Gato_Solo
5/16/02, 10:38am
Originally posted by [b]
First, as a gay man I happen to have plenty of knowledge on this particular issue. More so then I think you would.
As for my intellectual capacity, well, it seems kinda sad that you resorted to such cheap shots in an effort to get your point across, but allow me the opportunity to enlighten you. My IQ is 140. In 6th grade I had the reading comprehension of a Sophomore college student. I took advanced honors classes all through high school. I participated in several intellectual debates as well as many intellectual competitions. I'm sure I'm qualified to handle a conversation with you.
So, lets talk about this part of your last post...
What has to be learned is that the ones who have a problem with the group, rarely have the problem with the individual.
One last thing, since you seem to think that the way you handled your situation was the correct way to do so, why don't you enlighten us with your wisdom so we can all see the error of our ways.
First...[B]what cheap shot? You said you have an IQ of 140, so show me my cheap shot...
Second...My way of dealing with the problem was to show up and have a good time.
Third...I never said he didn't have the right to show up at his prom with his date...
As for the enlightenment, and the obvious cheap shot you gave me by insinuating I was stupid, I'll give you some enlightenment...
You stated that you were gay...Who cares? I surely don't. It's your life, and live it the way you wish as long as you don't try to force it upon me. You also stated that you are part of a group that "Almost everybody hates". THAT was my point. If you use your superior intellect, you'll see that most demands for equality by an individual may have some effect on that individual, but are not always carried over to the majority. He won his court case, but has now made himself (the individual) an object of scorn. He also made himself out to be a victim. Instead of showing up at the prom, with his date and 20 or so more people, straight and homosexual, to picket and show him some support, he went at it alone. If he ends up getting a 'beat-down' or worse, how would you feel then?
so show me my cheap shot...
OK.
Maybe this is all too complex for you, but, when you stop with your cranial-rectal inversion, you'll see the big picture.
Not only do you insinuate that I lack intelligence you also call me a butthead. Boo on you.
Second...My way of dealing with the problem was to show up and have a good time.
THATS IT?!? Then what does this mean?
The tow, or three, people who caused the problem were taken care of...believe me,
Sounds to me like something more happened. I was just curious as to what? Something had to of happened if they were taken care of like you stated . And besides, I don't see where your situation draws a parallel to his. Were either you or your date banned from the prom?
You stated that you were gay...Who cares?
I do. But that's not the point. The only reason I mentioned I was gay was in response to this statement made by you:
Not to argue with you too much on issues that you obviously know nothing about
I only mentioned it to show you that this was indeed an issue I had some familiarity with.
If you use your superior intellect, you'll see that most demands for equality by an individual may have some effect on that individual, but are not always carried over to the majority.
It doesn't take superior intellect to know that. But the point of what Marc Hall did was to set a precedent, and when enough precedents are set it will follow over to the majority. Now that Marc Hall has done what he has, hopefully other gay students will start coming forward to demand their right to take their same sex date to prom. Once they've done that, they'll start demanding other rights, and pretty soon gay people won't be afraid anymore. Those that are afraid will see that there are enough of us out there not to be afraid. This is just like any other civil liberty movement. It all starts with one person.
He won his court case, but has now made himself (the individual) an object of scorn.
If you read the post over he's only made himself an object of scorn to you. The other person who had negative comments were about homosexuality in general. Everybody else seems to have neutral to positive feelings about the situation.
Instead of showing up at the prom, with his date and 20 or so more people, straight and homosexual, to picket and show him some support, he went at it alone.
And THAT wouldn't of caused a ruckus?!?! Let's see, by your logic:
1 boy goes to court + media gets wind = ruckus.
or
1 boy + 19 supporters picketing a high school prom + lots of media coverage (I added this part, you know they wouldn't pass up on 20 people picketing a catholic high school prom over issues of homosexuality ) = everybody's happy?
I just don't understand how anyone could think that 20 protesters marching outside a Catholic School prom would be better then one kid going to court.
The only way this wouldn't of made headlines is if he just sat back and didn't say anything to anybody. And that is unacceptable.
If he ends up getting a 'beat-down' or worse, how would you feel then?
I'd feel the same way I do any time I read where someone is beat up or killed over an issue of race, gender, religion or sexuality...it would sadden me greatly. It would be the same way I felt for you when I read your post Women aren't always the victims . It's unfortunate that something like that has to happen to anybody, for whatever reason.
[b]
I just read an article in Time Magazine stating that the percentage of homosexual priests in the Catholic priest community is higher than the percentage of homosexuals in the community-at-large.
Talk about "do as I say, not as I do." :rolleyes:
outside looking in
5/17/02, 01:02am
Glad to see you guys keeping it pretty civil here. You make me so proud. ;)
Professur
5/17/02, 01:39am
All I can say is "the fudge packers win yet another one."
outside looking in
5/17/02, 02:03am
And just when I made a comment about keeping it civil. :rolleyes:
Let's try to refrain from derogatory slurs please.
Gato_Solo
5/17/02, 02:38pm
For all those interested...
Cranial-rectal inversion does *not* mean you are a poo-poo head. It means that you have your head up your ass, i.e. you are out of touch.
greenfreak
5/17/02, 02:48pm
Gato, that's it? You finally have someone you can have an informed debate with and you're not continuing? :eek: ;) I thought you would eat this up at least for another few pages at least. :)
next time i'm insulted i'll at least know which one... ;)
greenfreak
5/17/02, 02:56pm
Sound we get [b]'s take on the JJR gay adoption thread? ;)
[beavis snicker] you said poo-poo head [/snicker]
unclehobart
5/17/02, 03:34pm
I think the real underlying issue is that all proms should just be done away with. Everyone should just go straight to the drunken hot tub orgy parties.
Originally posted by unclehobart
I think the real underlying issue is that all proms should just be done away with. Everyone should just go straight to the drunken hot tub orgy parties.
i'll drink to that!!!!!!! :beerdrnk:
Cranial-rectal inversion does *not* mean you are a poo-poo head. It means that you have your head up your ass, i.e. you are out of touch.
My apologies. I always thought inversion ment a switch of places since the root word, invert, means: to reverse the postion of, order, or condtion of.
Cranial-rectal insertion would be closer to having your head up your ass, but then that's just my opinon.
Sound we get [b]'s take on the JJR gay adoption thread?
?
I think the real underlying issue is that all proms should just be done away with. Everyone should just go straight to the drunken hot tub orgy parties.
Now that's an idea :D
[b] greenie was just saying that you are so good at arguing your point, (we are all truly impressed) you could be a match for JJR, who runs a similar site and loves nothing better than a debate. )
greenfreak
5/17/02, 08:19pm
That's true but I think Gato is better at debate than JJR. The thread I was talking about is on JJR512.com and I was saying I would like your take on it. But when I went to go copy the link, I realized that there are 346 replies!! Here's (http://forums.jjr512.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=29986&highlight=adoption) the link. It's a monster, I don't expect you to read it all. I did but only because I was reading it day by day.
greenfreak
5/17/02, 08:21pm
Now that I looked at it, I realized it's yet another controversial thread started by Ku'u. Boy, she's a little troublemaker, isn't she? ;) :D
Originally posted by greenfreak
Now that I looked at it, I realized it's yet another controversial thread started by Ku'u. Boy, she's a little troublemaker, isn't she? ;) :D
*bowing* thank you, thank you. i couldn't have done it without any of you :D
Professur
5/17/02, 08:51pm
Sure you could.
Originally posted by greenfreak
That's true but I think Gato is better at debate than JJR. The thread I was talking about is on JJR512.com and I was saying I would like your take on it. But when I went to go copy the link, I realized that there are 346 replies!! Here's (http://forums.jjr512.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=29986&highlight=adoption) the link. It's a monster, I don't expect you to read it all. I did but only because I was reading it day by day.
I personally enjoyed that debate.
greenfreak
5/17/02, 08:57pm
Not counting the three guests that are viewing it right now, that thread has 2060 views. I'm interested to see how many more it gets.
Dats alotta views.
I'm one of the three guests viewing it. I'm on page six right now.
Where should I post my response? Here or there? Well, I'm not a member there, I can post it here unless there is an objection.
Professur
5/17/02, 10:15pm
just register there.
I was just going to say that. Register there, post away. A good many of us are members there too. :)
No prob. It's a lot to go thru, I've been making notes and stuff, it might be a day or two (I have to work tomorrow) but I should have something there by Monday.
greenfreak
5/17/02, 11:11pm
:cool: Cool beans... :D
greenfreak
5/19/02, 12:40am
2088 views so far. It takes a while to get through it, very well thought out [b]. Your effort shows. What do you do for a living? If it doesn't involve writing, perhaps you should do some in your spare time-you have a talent. )
Thanks again. :blush:
I'd tell you what I do for a living, but you wouldn't like me any more if I did. ;)
Actually, I'm an Accounts Receivable rep. I take payments and make payment arrangements for a major telephone company. It's interesting work; I get to tell people they have to pay their phone bill if they expect it to work and they get to cuss me out. :D
I do write some, mostly journal stuff, but poetry, short stories, that kinda thing. I spend most of my free time with my photography. Pictures are worth a thousand words you know ;)
That was a great post! I had assumed too that you did some writing in some way. I made a post there, my name there is leslie, maybe you could answer it because it is something I worry about, and I could use something less to worry about :laugh:
I feel your pain, I worked for the phone company here on the phones for a while :rolleyes:
:headbang:
greenfreak
5/19/02, 12:06pm
Dorothea Lang said, "The camera is an instrument that teaches people to see without a camera." So true. :)
I used to do A/R, while I was in computer school for a year. No offense, but I don't think I could do that as a choice. The monotony drove me batty sometimes.
AlladinSane
5/19/02, 04:56pm
Originally posted by greenfreak
That's true but I think Gato is better at debate than JJR.
Sure, But I really wanted to see if he can change mx-6* mind.
Originally posted by L. Summerton
[b] (we are all truly impressed)
Since when do you speak for all of us Mrs. Summerton? :P
:D
Sure, But I really wanted to see if he can change mx-6* mind.
I haven't checked to see if he's responded yet or not. I doubt I could say anything that would change his mind...you never know though.
AlladinSane
5/20/02, 12:08am
Hehe I doubt too. But that would be the supreme success. Great post BTW. I hope you visit more there.
*curiosity is killing me* I think I have to sneak over there for a little peak as to what's been happening in that thread ... I'll be back ... :D
[b], thank you for saying eloquently what I was trying to say (at JJR's), but couldn't.
You know, it may be the fact that I grew up in Hawaii, where everyone is different ... where everyone I know has mixed blood or is related to someone with mixed blood, where people marry others of different racial/religious background, and where everyone knows someone who is homosexual or is related to someone who is homosexual. People here just get along. Who cares "what" a person is, it's "who" they are that counts.
If you're interested, I've updated my response on JJR.
Gato_Solo
5/23/02, 10:13am
Geez. I leave for a few days and now my ranting has pushed another lost soul into JJR512...
Gato_Solo
5/23/02, 10:14am
Geez. I leave for a few days and now my ranting has pushed another lost soul into JJR512... :D
Where have you been?! I've been worried about you!
Gato_Solo
5/23/02, 11:53am
Actually working... ;)
Gato_Solo
5/23/02, 12:51pm
To put the bee back in [B]'s bonnet... :D
Originally posted by [b]
No, lets argue.
First, as a gay man I happen to have plenty of knowledge on this particular issue. More so then I think you would.
Try being a part of the one group almost everybody hates. I can think of no other group that has less rights then homosexuals.
For example:
We can't get married.
If you're religious it's hard to find a church that will accept you. (Isn't that why the kid had to go to court in the first place?)
[b]
1. Placing homosexuality on the same level as racism has some merit, but you cannot compare the two. If you don't tell anyone your sexual orientation, then how would you be discriminated against? I can't hide my differences. Most folks don't care about yours until you bring it up.
2. You can always start your own church. That's what other folks do when the 'mainstream' religions do not accept them. That way, you can get married, in a church, and get over your feelings of 'non-acceptance'. Please don't tell me you can't do it. History is full of people who did.
You see how you are :P
[oops ... this comment is in regards to Gato's post about pushing people to Justin's site - I didn't see the second page]
Originally posted by Gato_Solo 1. Placing homosexuality on the same level as racism has some merit, but you cannot compare the two. If you don't tell anyone your sexual orientation, then how would you be discriminated against? I can't hide my differences. Most folks don't care about yours until you bring it up.
Homophobia and racism are on the same level. Discrimination is discrimination is discrimination. Just because it may be easier for someone to hide their sexuality doesn't make discrimination any less so. You could hide your race if you really wanted to. Sure, it might take a lot of time and makeup, but they do it in movies all the time. It takes the same decision to hide your race as it does your sexuality. You have to give up your individuality and hide who you truly are.
Many people think that it's so easy for gay people to act "straight". For some, yes. But others want to be out and proud. They want to dress and act how they feel. It's no different then a religious person wearing clothing that indicates what god they worship, an Irish person wearing a "Kiss me I'm Irish" button, a black person wearing African garb, Goth kids dressing in all black, or punk kids with lib spikes. These people all want the same thing. To be recognized for who they are and what they believe in. They dress so that people will know that and in hopes they might find others who share those same beliefs.
Most people consider me "straight" acting. I hate that. I don't want to be labeled as being something I'm not. I'm me. I have many gay pride stickers on my car and a shirt that reads, "Lets get one thing straight, I'm not." I do this to show people that I'm not the least bit afraid of what they think. I will not be held down by people who would rather I hide myself in order to gain their acceptance then be my friend otherwise. I am also "out" in hopes that I will meet other gay people. There is a bit of a lifestyle to being gay. Especially right now. We have to do some many things different in order to get along in the world, it helps to have support of people who have been there or are going through what you're going through.
If we hide ourselves from straight people, then we hide ourselves from each other.
Originally posted by Gato_Solo 2. You can always start your own church. That's what other folks do when the 'mainstream' religions do not accept them. That way, you can get married, in a church, and get over your feelings of 'non-acceptance'. Please don't tell me you can't do it. History is full of people who did.
History is also full of people who were burned at the stake or cruelly tortured when they strayed from mainstream religions. Not that I haven't started my own church. I have. But I don't call it a church and I don't worship a god. As a matter of fact, I'm the only member. But if you're interested you can join.
Homosexuals have commitment ceremonies already but they're not legal. What good is a new fangled gay church with no respect going to do? Besides, at this point I'm sure one already exists.
[b]
Originally posted by [b]
Homophobia and racism are on the same level. Discrimination is discrimination is discrimination. Just because it may be easier for someone to hide their sexuality doesn't make discrimination any less so. You could hide your race if you really wanted to. Sure, it might take a lot of time and makeup, but they do it in movies all the time. It takes the same decision to hide your race as it does your sexuality. You have to give up your individuality and hide who you truly are.
This is true. People assume I'm Native American, Samoan, Filipino, or Mexican. Ignorant people don't take the time to learn who you really are.
Ku'u, while that statement is a whole lot closer to the truth thanyou may realize, in it's spirit, many people take offense to being asked their heritage/race. This is a no win situation.
Gonz...You're completely right on that. There have been many times I've wanted to ask somebody what their heritage was but didn't because I was afraid I would offend them.
I wonder...are people touchy because they think I should know what race they are without asking, or because they are afraid I might have some intention of harming them?
Either way kinda sucks. Seems to put a hamper on cultural exchanges.
[b]
I dislike gayness, but I do get along with gay people. I am willing to talk to them like any other person unless they start getting all gay on me and start hitting on me. :lol:
You flatter yourself. :D
MuFu.
MitchSchaft
5/26/02, 01:55pm
lol. I also believe being homo is wrong. Inately, morally, whatever. But, that doesn't mean I'm not gonna talk to that person. Plus, lesbians are cool all around, even though it's wrong:D.
Originally posted by Anakin
I dislike gayness, but I do get along with gay people. I am willing to talk to them like any other person unless they start getting all gay on me and start hitting on me. :lol:
I think, as a rule, gay people usually only hit on people they think (or know) are gay. Somethin' you're not telling us sb?
Originally posted by *Q*
Originally posted by Anakin
I dislike gayness, but I do get along with gay people. I am willing to talk to them like any other person unless they start getting all gay on me and start hitting on me. :lol:
I think, as a rule, gay people usually only hit on people they think (or know) are gay. Somethin' you're not telling us sb?
Tell you the truth, I've never known any gay people in person (for all I know.. ;) ). I usually meet them on ICQ, or what have you. They know I'm a guy, and I tell them I'm not gay, but they usually talk about sick gay stuff and I'm like I don't go for that sort of thing, shutup. :D
I believe homosexuality is morally wrong, and that's a part of my religion. Even if I had no religion, I still think it's nasty. :D
Originally posted by MitchSchaft
Plus, lesbians are cool all around, even though it's wrong:D.
Amen to that. :P
MuFu.
freako104
5/26/02, 10:47pm
i think gays should have the same rights and respect as straights. as i have said in a thread on jjr512, i dont agree with the lifestyle and dont understand it but i see them as humans. and i have gay friends who know im straight and instead look at it sa im a friend and thast all ill ever be to them and they are respectful and dont flirt at all with me although i tend to get hit on more by bisexual women. but i wont complain about that :D
MitchSchaft
5/27/02, 12:31am
bisexual women:D :drool:
Gato_Solo
5/27/02, 08:20am
Originally posted by [b]
Originally posted by Gato_Solo 1. Placing homosexuality on the same level as racism has some merit, but you cannot compare the two. If you don't tell anyone your sexual orientation, then how would you be discriminated against? I can't hide my differences. Most folks don't care about yours until you bring it up.
Homophobia and racism are on the same level. Discrimination is discrimination is discrimination. Just because it may be easier for someone to hide their sexuality doesn't make discrimination any less so. You could hide your race if you really wanted to. Sure, it might take a lot of time and makeup, but they do it in movies all the time. It takes the same decision to hide your race as it does your sexuality. You have to give up your individuality and hide who you truly are.
Many people think that it's so easy for gay people to act "straight". For some, yes. But others want to be out and proud. They want to dress and act how they feel. It's no different then a religious person wearing clothing that indicates what god they worship, an Irish person wearing a "Kiss me I'm Irish" button, a black person wearing African garb, Goth kids dressing in all black, or punk kids with lib spikes. These people all want the same thing. To be recognized for who they are and what they believe in. They dress so that people will know that and in hopes they might find others who share those same beliefs.
Most people consider me "straight" acting. I hate that. I don't want to be labeled as being something I'm not. I'm me. I have many gay pride stickers on my car and a shirt that reads, "Lets get one thing straight, I'm not." I do this to show people that I'm not the least bit afraid of what they think. I will not be held down by people who would rather I hide myself in order to gain their acceptance then be my friend otherwise. I am also "out" in hopes that I will meet other gay people. There is a bit of a lifestyle to being gay. Especially right now. We have to do some many things different in order to get along in the world, it helps to have support of people who have been there or are going through what you're going through.
If we hide ourselves from straight people, then we hide ourselves from each other.
Originally posted by Gato_Solo 2. You can always start your own church. That's what other folks do when the 'mainstream' religions do not accept them. That way, you can get married, in a church, and get over your feelings of 'non-acceptance'. Please don't tell me you can't do it. History is full of people who did.
History is also full of people who were burned at the stake or cruelly tortured when they strayed from mainstream religions. Not that I haven't started my own church. I have. But I don't call it a church and I don't worship a god. As a matter of fact, I'm the only member. But if you're interested you can join.
Homosexuals have commitment ceremonies already but they're not legal. What good is a new fangled gay church with no respect going to do? Besides, at this point I'm sure one already exists.
All the same...I never said anything about 'acting straight'. Doesn't matter whether you do or not. How easy is it, though, for me to appear white? Aside from the dubious medical pathway (Michael Jackson), there is nothing I can do to change my appearance. Fact is...it's none of my business what goes on in your bedroom...just as it's none of your business what goes on in mine. No matter what you come up with as a comparison, it just won't be enough. Keep your mouth shut, and people don't know your sexual orientation. Period. Anything else is belittling to those of us who have had to struggle in the past. How many people do you know, gay or straight, who have been kept from a [B]public place because of who they were? I was 4 and was barred from a public pool because of my race. I still remember that incident to this day, and it marked me. You can still see some vestiges of 'Jim Crow' in the South on some of the older buildings...and the signs don't say 'Gay' and 'Straight'...and you say you are discriminated against. You don't know what discrimination is until you open your mouth. Your argument is flawed from that point on.
Now for the religion...How many people today are burned at the stake for starting a religion? (Don't include David Koresch, who fired upon government agents) I say it again...you don't like todays religious system, start your own. Your argument there was a cop-out. Most religions started out with no respect. Early Christians were regularly, and actively, killed in ancient Rome, or did you forget that aspect? Same for early Muslims and Jews. Those religions were, in their respective beginnings, thought to be made up of kooks and wierdos. They paid a heavy price to become what they are today, and you seem to forget that fact as well. You want to live and worship where you are accepted, then you must pay a price. If you aren't willing to make the sacrifice, then you shouldn't try to 'force' those who have to accept you.
MitchSchaft
5/27/02, 07:52pm
So, I wonder if I can come up with excuses as to why murder should be right... I can't because it's wrong I guess.
Homo and race issues are so different. You can't compare them, mr. B.
All the same...I never said anything about 'acting straight'
In all fairness, you've never actually said gay people should act straight. But what you do say all points to that conclusion. Gay people should, "keep their mouths shut" and we shouldn't shove homosexuality in peoples faces. The more I read your replies, the stronger I get the impression you wouldn't care if the whole world was gay, just so long as you didn't have to know about it.
Ignorance is not bliss.
For me not to tell people I'm gay, for me not to hold my boyfriend's hand in public, for me not to say, "Honey, do we need milk?" while we are at the grocery store would all lead people to believe I was straight. That's the default, that's what's normal right? Being straight? If nobody ever knows I'm gay, then I'm acting straight. Simple as that.
You say that anything besides keeping our mouths shut is belittling to those that have struggled for equality in the past. You say that I don't know what discrimination is because there aren't gay and straight water fountains, or because I don't get made to sit at the back of the bus, or because I wasn't banned from a public pool.
Yet you're the one telling me that I need to keep my mouth shut. You're the one telling me I should hide my sexuality because you don't think it's right. And you say I don't know what discrimination is...ha! You don't want to see what you're doing as discrimination because you don't want to be wrong. You don't want to be a part of the same group of people that discriminated against you. Well you are. The moment you tell me I can't do something you can do equals discrimination. The moment you tell me to keep my mouth shut you oppress me.
It's almost as if you're jealous that I can hide being gay and therefore avoid the discrimination you feel you've been subject to because it's not as easy for you to hide your race. Seems kinda ironic that gay people choose to out themselves and subject themselves to public ridicule and discrimination when we could so easily avoid all of that. I wonder why we do that? Is it because we are making the sacrifices you don't think we're willing to make? I think so.
It's you who belittles the struggles of those in the past by telling me to keep my mouth shut. Every black person that fought for freedom could of kept his mouth shut and remained a slave. The whole world could of kept it's mouth shut and let the Jews be exterminated. And I'm sure there are plenty of times you could kept your mouth shut to avoid some of the problems you've had in your life.
So no, I will not keep quiet. I will continue to fight for equal, not special, treatment of all members of the human race.
Fact is...it's none of my business what goes on in your bedroom...just as it's none of your business what goes on in mine.
What does me telling somebody I'm gay got to do with what goes on in my bedroom? I know people who are gay who have never had gay sex. I don't know any gay people who go up and say, "Hello, my name is Bob, I'm gay and last night my boyfriend plowed me up the ass."
Me knowing that you're straight doesn't tell me what you and your boyfriend do in the bedroom. The two of you might have the world's most vanilla sex, or maybe you like to dress up in a French maid outfit and spank him with a paddle. I don't know and I don't care. As you've stated, it's nobody's business.
To equate telling somebody that they're gay with automatically telling them what they do in their bedroom is silly. I can't recall a single time I've ever given details about what I do in the bedroom to a straight person. But I've heard plenty of straight people talk about what they do.
As for the religious aspect...why don't you reread what I've already posted. I have started my own religion. I even offered you the ability to join if you like. Actually, it's more a philosophy, a way of life, then a god worshiping religion. Call it what you like, I've already done it.
My statement that people were burned at the stake for disagreeing with religious dogma is not a cop-out and is still valid today. Maybe not in practice, but in theory. Gay people get beat up and killed for being gay just like Jews got beat up and killed for being Jews, just like Christians got beat up and killed for being Christians.
Just because the methods are different doesn't mean the thought behind them isn't the same.
Originally posted by MitchSchaft
So, I wonder if I can come up with excuses as to why murder should be right... I can't because it's wrong I guess.
Homo and race issues are so different. You can't compare them, mr. B.
Are you comparing finding an excuse for murder to be ok with trying to find an excuse for homosexuality to be ok? Now those are two issues that are so far from each other you can't compare them.
Discrimination against race, religion, gender, age, sexuality or any number of other reasons can all be equally compared.
1. Homo has become a derogatory form of the word homosexual, just like nigger is a derogatory from of the word negro.
2. My job is in an accounts receivable department. I work on the phones all day. Nobody I talk to has any idea what I or any of the people I work with look like.
One of the ladies that I work with relayed this story to me.
A local customer used to call in and would only talk with her because he hated black people. Every time he would call in he would only ask for her and wouldn't speak with any of the black people in our office. One day they transferred this lady to an office that customers could come into. Lo and behold in walks this gentleman to visit the one lady he's worked with for several years.
Imagine his surprise when he found out she was black. He threw a fit. Told her that she wasn't who she claimed to be and stormed out of the office. He never spoke to her again. After all those years she helped him, after all of the nice things he had said to her, he let the one thing she kept secret destroy all of that.
She had done what Gato thinks I should do. She had kept her mouth shut and what good did it do her? The moment she was found out she was discriminated against.
3. Did you know that homosexuals were one of the first groups rounded up by the Nazis? Even before the rounding up of Jews, gays were forced to wear pink triangles on their sleeves and were rounded up and forced into concentration camps or killed.
So don't tell me it's not the same. Hate is hate. Discrimination is discrimination. It's all pointless.
MitchSchaft
6/02/02, 07:44pm
I'm not speaking of a hate/discrimination issue as far as the gay subject is concerned. If you're gonna be that different from society, then don't expect people to like it.
If you're gonna be that different from society, then don't expect people to like it.
I don't expect people to like it. What I expect, and what I feel we should all expect, is to not be hated, persecuted, or discriminated by other people for no other reason then they don't like you.
I don't want people to like me because I'm gay. I want to be liked for who I am. Part of that is being gay but it's no more important then the fact that I'm left handed or that I love the arts.
For all I care people can hate me because to them the thought of two men together is disgusting. But that's no reason why I shouldn't be allowed to adopt a child, have a legal marriage, or take my boyfriend to the prom. I'm not going to let my feelings about another person stop them from doing those same things.
People = People
[b]
freako104
6/03/02, 12:45pm
they may not like it but shouldnt they tolerate it? i mean i wil admit i hate the idea of a guy coming onto me but i would say to him that im straight and im not intrested in the guy sexually. but society will never accept whats different although as i said in another thread regarding this topic, society is changing and will always be changing so maybe it will be liked just as much as heterosexuality.
vBulletin® v3.6.8, Copyright ©2000-2012, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.