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Gaunt
10/14/02, 10:14pm
I'm studying biology as my major, and this question pops up quite a bit: When does a life really begin?

Some people say at fertilization, others say some time between fertilization and birth, and a few think at birth.

What do you think?


***disclaimer: this is not a discussion about abortion***

Jeslek
10/14/02, 10:33pm
Life begins at conception. When the sperm and the egg becomes one. That is the first cell of human life. Even killing that one cell is murder in my eyes.

I'm also wondering about this. For those that say life does not start at conception, but a baby when it is born IS alive, where does life start? If you say a baby just 1 minute before being born is not alive, why can't you get a late minute abortion just 1 minute before birth? Where is the line? Where is the millisecond that a baby turns from a tumorous growth into a living human being?

Gonz
10/14/02, 10:34pm
at viability outside the womb. if one cannot live without moms umbilical cord or a machine, it ain't time to call it soup.

Dave
10/14/02, 10:36pm
^ ^ ^ what he said....

Scanty
10/14/02, 10:38pm
Depends what you mean by life.

whoreable
10/14/02, 10:44pm
Life begins at conception. When the sperm and the egg becomes one. That is the first cell of human life. Even killing that one cell is murder in my eyes.

I'm also wondering about this. For those that say life does not start at conception, but a baby when it is born IS alive, where does life start? If you say a baby just 1 minute before being born is not alive, why can't you get a late minute abortion just 1 minute before birth? Where is the line? Where is the millisecond that a baby turns from a tumorous growth into a living human being?

wouldn't think one cell be almost exactly the same as one plant cell????

i think we caught you on this one!!!!! :) :) :)

Jeslek
10/14/02, 10:51pm
Life begins at conception. When the sperm and the egg becomes one. That is the first cell of human life. Even killing that one cell is murder in my eyes.

I'm also wondering about this. For those that say life does not start at conception, but a baby when it is born IS alive, where does life start? If you say a baby just 1 minute before being born is not alive, why can't you get a late minute abortion just 1 minute before birth? Where is the line? Where is the millisecond that a baby turns from a tumorous growth into a living human being?

wouldn't think one cell be almost exactly the same as one plant cell????

i think we caught you on this one!!!!! :) :) :)Plants do not have souls. Neither do animals.

Gaunt
10/14/02, 10:57pm
Personally, I think it's when creature (I didn't specify humans, but I guess that is the focus) begins to differentiate among their different cells. For instance, the stem cells begin to become more specialized and become brain tissue, epidermal tissue, etc.

Dave
10/14/02, 10:57pm
what is your definition of a soul?

PT
10/14/02, 10:58pm
Life begins at conception. When the sperm and the egg becomes one. That is the first cell of human life. Even killing that one cell is murder in my eyes.

I'm also wondering about this. For those that say life does not start at conception, but a baby when it is born IS alive, where does life start? If you say a baby just 1 minute before being born is not alive, why can't you get a late minute abortion just 1 minute before birth? Where is the line? Where is the millisecond that a baby turns from a tumorous growth into a living human being?

wouldn't think one cell be almost exactly the same as one plant cell????

i think we caught you on this one!!!!! :) :) :)Plants do not have souls. Neither do animals.

If you don't think animals have souls, then what makes you so arrogant to believe that we do?

Jeslek
10/14/02, 11:08pm
Life begins at conception. When the sperm and the egg becomes one. That is the first cell of human life. Even killing that one cell is murder in my eyes.

I'm also wondering about this. For those that say life does not start at conception, but a baby when it is born IS alive, where does life start? If you say a baby just 1 minute before being born is not alive, why can't you get a late minute abortion just 1 minute before birth? Where is the line? Where is the millisecond that a baby turns from a tumorous growth into a living human being?

wouldn't think one cell be almost exactly the same as one plant cell????

i think we caught you on this one!!!!! :) :) :)Plants do not have souls. Neither do animals.

If you don't think animals have souls, then what makes you so arrogant to believe that we do?Religion.

Now you can attack me all you want. I've said it. I'm now wide open and vulnerable.

unclehobart
10/14/02, 11:10pm
Life begins at the first time you sneak into an R rated movie.

Nixy
10/14/02, 11:33pm
Life begins when you move out of your parents house!

whoreable
10/15/02, 12:20am
why did you try to convince us killing animals is so bad if you think they are soulless pieces of flesh?

:confuse2:

Jeslek
10/15/02, 12:23am
why did you try to convince us killing animals is so bad if you think they are soulless pieces of flesh?

:confuse2:I didn't say it is bad. I said I don't consider them food.

And don't hijack this thread, it is a very interesting one.

whoreable
10/15/02, 12:31am
there you go tellin me what to do again just accept it. I EAT MEAT!!! MEAT FOREVER!!!

PT
10/15/02, 12:35am
Ok, but I think your thought is flawed, In another thread, you base a soul on the fact that they are self-concious. My dogs are certainly self concious, and to answer another of your threads, I'd take a bullet for one of them faster than I would some of my friends. (I realize, this may mean I need new friends, but the dogs are more loyal).

Now as for the original question, Life begins not at conception, not at birth, but somewhere in between. At the point where the fetus COULD survive without the mother. Nothing miraculous, but not just plopped in a field somewhere either.

MitchSchaft
10/15/02, 12:46am
You guys are trying to answer questions that nobody can. Good luck :D.

Gonz
10/15/02, 12:54am
I vote for Nixys answer with a very very close second going to unc.

Jeslek
10/15/02, 01:04am
Ok, but I think your thought is flawed, In another thread, you base a soul on the fact that they are self-concious. My dogs are certainly self conciousLook, then I did not quite write down what I believe. Its hard enough to translate with English being my third language, with words popping up in other languages that I can't easily translate. Now, I'm going to try to explain what I mean.

I believe humans are different from all other animals because they have a soul. They can reason, think, are self-conscious, and can distinguish between good and evil. Now those may not be sufficient reason, but lets throw in religion here and thats enough for me.

Below them are animals. Though animals are alive, and probably self-conscious, they cannot reason at our level, and they cannot think at our level.

Below them are plants. Yes they are alive. I don't think they are self-conscious though. Whether they are or not, they are different from humans, and they are different from animals.

I don't consider other humans food. And I don't consider other animals food (yes they may taste nice, but I avoid eating them). Plants on the other hand, I will eat.

Now leave me be. I won't argue anymore on the food thing. Take it to the other thread. Now back to our main programming which is where life beings.

Puter, so if live beings at a certain state, then of course at a certain state abortion has to be considered murder right? When is that? Its awfully hazy right now the way you explain it... And haziness isn't something I think should be there when we are talking about murdering innocent children.

I have a link that clearly sums up why I'm against abortion. If anyone wants it, PM me ok?

Gonz
10/15/02, 01:08am
I don't consider other humans food.

So, when your wife says eat me, is that a good thing or a bad thing? :D

Jeslek
10/15/02, 01:11am
I don't consider other humans food.

So, when your wife says eat me, is that a good thing or a bad thing? :DIn that case I will make an exception :D Lets see, I can "eat" breast milk (I think), woman's um, juices down there, cum, and spit. Thats it. Now stop being so literal. :D

You know, that description... I think you're taking things a little seriously... I take it you don't exactly approve of my style of life.. mhh, it works for me.

Gonz
10/15/02, 01:13am
it's just so fun to pester you. ;)

Luis G
10/15/02, 01:14am
Life as in biology starts at the time of fertilization.
Life as in a psychological way......starts when you complete some nice list: sex, drunk, driving, working to get money, and others.

:D

Jeslek
10/15/02, 01:15am
it's just so fun to pester you. ;)Mhh, as you wish old man... :P

PT
10/15/02, 02:32am
Puter, so if live beings at a certain state, then of course at a certain state abortion has to be considered murder right? When is that? Its awfully hazy right now the way you explain it... And haziness isn't something I think should be there when we are talking about murdering innocent children.

I have a link that clearly sums up why I'm against abortion. If anyone wants it, PM me ok?

The way I explain it is, if a child can live on it's own, it is alive. As Gaunt said in his first post, this is not a discussion about abortion, simply when a child is alive. From what I've found about 23 weeks into the gestation period is about the earliest that a child has been born and survived, Although, serious disabilities can occur at that age. Read an interesting article about that here. (http://www.indystar.com/library/special/preemies/preemie08.html)

That is all I'm going to get into here, as you obviously don't agree with me about the abortion issue. I'm not going to change my mind, and I certainly don't expect to change yours.

Nixy
10/15/02, 08:10am
Life as in biology starts at the time of fertilization.
Life as in a psychological way......starts when you complete some nice list: sex, drunk, driving, working to get money, and others.

:D

OK, did you mean getting drun kand driving as two seperate events or did you mean "drunk driving"?

Scanty
10/15/02, 09:02am
It's very interesting that so many of you have such definite answers and sound so bloody sure of yourself...when the meaning of the word 'life' hasn't even been defined for us to have a discussion in the first place.
Luis is the only one who tried to differentiate between notions of the word 'life'. And Spot, the only one to enquire into the real meaning of these vague concepts that we love to throw around, like 'soul'.

People end up in futile arguments because they are not actually thinking and speaking from the exact same base ideas. Everyone's got their own interpretations of terms like 'life' and 'self-consciousness'. Doesn't seem to bother a lot of you though, so just plough on in there with what you know is right...

outside looking in
10/15/02, 11:58am
The world does not exist in black and white... shades of grey are a part of nature.

Sometimes, attempting to draw lines is a futile attempt simply because there is no one place a division can be made.

Very similar to the question of "when does a new species begin?" Carving nature at her joints is impossible sometimes simply because she has no joints.

Luis G
10/15/02, 12:33pm
OK, did you mean getting drun kand driving as two seperate events or did you mean "drunk driving"?

Separate events (notice the comma). Although.....drunk driving is part of the full experience :D :D

Jeslek
10/15/02, 12:35pm
OK, did you mean getting drun kand driving as two seperate events or did you mean "drunk driving"?

Separate events (notice the comma). Although.....drunk driving is part of the full experience :D :DIts also quite sick.

fury
10/15/02, 01:23pm
Neither do animals.

I beg to differ. I have no doubt that my cats have souls. :headbang: