View Full Version : 4 Canadian soldiers dead
Four Canadian soldiers serving with the 3rd Battalion, Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry Battle Group have been killed in a live-fire training exercise.
Eight Canadian soldiers were also wounded, two with life-threatening injuries, one with very serious injuries, and five with serious injuries.
The fatal accident happened at approximately 5:25 p.m. EDT Wednesday when a U.S. Air National Guard F-16 dropped one or two 500-pound bombs on Canadian troops who were at the time conducting training exercises in an area about 14 kilometres south of the Kandahar airfield. :(
www.pulse24.com
Justintime
4/18/02, 08:34am
Pilots should be shot :mad2:
Shadowfax
4/18/02, 08:41am
No they shouldn't. That wouldn't serve any cause. They should be judged for their crimes, but not shot.
How cruel it may sound, these things just happen :(
It happens all to often. The pilots and those in charge of the pilots orders obviously have far to much freedom to attack if so many civilians and allies are killed in the process.
Where are the safety protocols?
The news channel associated with the source states that, as we are peacekeepers, these are the first Canadian deaths associated with combat since the Korean War. :(
It also now states that all 4 killed were Edmonton based.
greenfreak
4/18/02, 09:48am
I'm sure this is going to do wonders for our relations with our allies. God Damnit. I can't imagine doing an honorable thing like serving a cause like this, only to get cut down by someone on the same side as you. Bah. :(
unclehobart
4/18/02, 09:56am
From what I heard, the bombs laser guidance was goofed and it went waaaaay off course. Remember the other one that dropped on US troops near 6 weeks ago during that prison riot assault? Insofar as I know, it was a pure accident caused by mechanical failure; not so much poor judgement on the pilots behalf.
I'm sure it was pure accident or mechanical failure. It is very sad for me, as it was the other times these have failed. I cried over the US men and their mothers too. I just hate all of this. :(
A sad state of affairs but this is war & collateral damage happens. There have been more allies killed by allies in this mes than by the enemy.
unclehobart
4/18/02, 11:25am
I still remember a Brit APC stuffed with like a dozen men being blown apart by an American A-10 during the Gulf War. It had straggled away from the main attack force and moved so far ahead that it was thought to be a fleeing Iraqi vehicle.
Americans would never attack Canadians on purpose. I am sure it was probably an error.
There have been many senseless killings in Afgainistan and neighboring countries that served no purpose. Look at the Daniel Pearl killing for example. I suppose one could argue that the people that killed Pearl managed to get the media attention and stike fear into the hearts of people, but did they really gain anything?
Btw, sorry for straying off the topic.
The report on the channel now is that the pilot saw the training exercise the Canadians were operating, took it as being fired upon (muzzle fire), called his control, was given permission to mark the target, flew over again to do so, saw more muzzle fire, and dropped the bomb. The control had not given him permission to do so. Seems he panicked.
outside looking in
4/18/02, 12:22pm
Friendly fire, accidents or mistakes, sucks. :(
unclehobart
4/18/02, 12:25pm
Swell... Thats the end of his career.. if not some brig time.
Originally posted by L. Summerton
The report on the channel now is that the pilot saw the training exercise the Canadians were operating, took it as being fired upon (muzzle fire), called his control, was given permission to mark the target, flew over again to do so, saw more muzzle fire, and dropped the bomb. The control had not given him permission to do so. Seems he panicked.
So he sees the Canadian soldiers in "combat," and he drops the bomb on the Canadians without permission? I think your U.S. airforce pilots need a hella lot more training and psychological profiling.
It's one thing to have casualties in a battle with the enemy, it's another to have them killed by your closest ally. :( :mad2:
unclehobart
4/18/02, 02:36pm
It was in the dead of night. He saw only muzzle flashes, not that they were Canadian. I think that the area being a practice mock battle zone didn't filter down the chain of command too well. Those who needed to know simply didn't know.
SB, It was a National Guard pilot, aka weekend warrior. Their training is a tad off as they dont get nearly as much stick time as the full timers.
Why the fuck don't they tell their pilots where the training areas are? Where the friendly units are? They don't tell their pilots shit, and that's why the U.S. has been involved in 3 friendly fire accidents in Afghanistan.
When was the last time a Canadian killed a friendly?
Newest report from same channel is that he in fact was given permission to retaliate. Takes awhile to get the whole story out, so take all of this with a grain of salt.
Yeah, he suposedly was taking fire from the ground.
Maybe it was those darn Canadians who thought it was a Taliban F-16?? :P :rolleyes:
Originally posted by sbcanada
Yeah, he suposedly was taking fire from the ground.
Maybe it was those darn Canadians who thought it was a Taliban F-16?? :P :rolleyes:
You'd think he'd have noticed they were all wearing American uniforms :rolleyes: :D
It was dark. How the hell do you hit an F-16 with a rifle when it's dark? HOW THE HELL DO YOU HIT AN F-16 WITH A RIFLE WHEN IT'S LIGHT OUTSIDE?? I think the pilot new they were Canadians and lied about being shot at so he could take them out and not suffer the consquences. :mad:
I'm gonna let the Americans take this one ;) :D
It's prob retaliation for blowing up the Baldwin brothers :D
Originally posted by Pradeep
It's prob retaliation for blowing up the Baldwin brothers :D
:D hahahaha! :D
Yep Canadian citizens, alert your PM. We, the Americans have quietly decided to take over your country, except that stinky french part, that we're giving to the Brits. The battle has begun....
NG or regular army doesn't matter. The pilot felt threatened by the ground fire or perceived ground fire & retaliated. If he got the okay, his ass is covered. If he fired on his own he's SOL. It was a mistake of the gravest kind. That is the nature of war. There will be apologies enough from the US government to go around & probably some financial compensation, which does not make up for the loss of life, but is a token of sorrow. It was not a intentional attack-if wer wanted to attack we'd start by turning detroit loose on windsor.
All the Baldwins are dead??? :D
Originally posted by sbcanada
All the Baldwins are dead??? :D
Maybe it was before your time. :D
Originally posted by Gonz
Yep Canadian citizens, alert your PM. We, the Americans have quietly decided to take over your country, except that stinky french part, that we're giving to the Brits. The battle has begun....
if we wanted to attack we'd start by turning detroit loose on windsor.
Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo! Anything but that! PLEASE, NOOOOOOO! :D
In South Park the movie, the Canadians bombed and killed all of the Baldwins. :D
Professur
4/18/02, 10:25pm
I would just like to mention that before this, no Canadian soldier had been killed in battle since the Korean war.
MitchSchaft
4/19/02, 01:45am
That was already mentioned. And it just means that they keep their nose out of folks' business I think.
Shit happens in wartime. We will never know what really happened. Media does not know everything, and if they did they would not tell us. Fuck 'em. Shit happens.
outside looking in
4/19/02, 02:45am
War sucks. Friendly fire has been a part of war since the very beginning, and we will probably never get rid of it as long as we continue to have wars.
Fuck 'em. Shit happens.
It'd be a different story if it was the other way around :(
The thing is we're not at war, those men were there for peacekeeping, and were in a training excercise, not a battle. They didn't even have a chance. I feel great pain for their mothers. Yes, this stuff happens, quite a lot lately frankly ?( , but that doesn't mean we can't be saddened by it and regret it, no matter where the victims are from. :(
unclehobart
4/19/02, 09:47am
Come to think of it, Korea wasn't a was either. It also ran under the great umbrella of 'police action'. You have to go back to WW2 to find a Canadian killed in war.
MitchSchaft
4/19/02, 10:11am
It'd be a different story if it was the other way around
It's happened many times already since this thing started.
You Americans seem to be in a lot of friendly fire accidents. I think you should change your policy a little. If you can't be certain who it is, don't drop a fucking bomb on them. And AS IF rifle fire could really threaten an F16. So self defense? Fuck that.
unclehobart
4/19/02, 08:12pm
111 Canadians have died in the role of UN peacekeepers since the 50s.
Originally posted by sbcanada
You Americans seem to be in a lot of friendly fire accidents. I think you should change your policy a little. If you can't be certain who it is, don't drop a fucking bomb on them. And AS IF rifle fire could really threaten an F16. So self defense? Fuck that.
OH YEA!!What if Usama was amongst your troops? HUH? Well Mr Peacenick Canadian. What's your answer now? ;)
It could happen[/siz]
the probability of a rifle doing damage to a moving AF jet is low, but there is a possibility & all troops in occupied lands have the right to self-defend.
outside looking in
4/19/02, 11:28pm
I wouldn't exacly call it self defense either. It is war over there, and in war, you kill the enemy.
If the pilot and his ground contact both thought it was enemy troops, it didn't matter much that they had little chance of actually downing the plane. In war, when the enemy fires on you, you generally take the opportunity to kill them if you have the means. It's an easy way to identify the enemy... those shooting at you get shot back at.
Unfortunately, in this case, a terrible mistake was made in identifying the troops. Very sad. I think it's a lesson for the US to try harder to eliminate such accidents, but there will always be that rare mistake...
The only way that we will be killed in a war (except by americans :) ) is if we try to take our helicopters in. Our entire army would be falling out of the sky within minutes.
outside looking in
4/19/02, 11:32pm
Did I miss an inside joke there? What's the deal with Canadian helicopters?
?( :(
Requiem for the Sea King (http://www.cbc.ca/news/indepth/facts/seaking.html) :D
Originally posted by outside looking in
there will always be that rare mistake...
Rare? I think the U.S. was involved in at least 4 or 5 friendly fire accidents in the Afghan conflict. What's that? About once a month? Hardly rare.
Anyways, we know the Canadians weren't shooting at the F-16s, so who was? There might have been enemy troops nearby taking shots at them... but were they so close to the Canadian troops that the F-16s thought the enemy was the Canadians? How would the Canadians not know about enemy troops if they were that nearby?
If the American commanders would instruct their pilots a little better (tell them where training zones are, where allied troops are, etc.) then this would not have happened. Thanks to you Yanks, I get to watch live in a few hours as my countrymen come back in coffins and on stretchers, all because of some trigger happy, poorly informed American pilot. :(
They are supposed to be releasing the results of the investigation in three weeks. Then we will have some answers.
[b] [b]
I didn't post this to instigate that discussion, I was merely surprised and saddened, and wanted to share.
We know Leslie, but what did you expect would happen at an OT site? ;)
Great link Leslie. That should explain our helicopters to everybody.
It just pisses me off, i mean i havnt been watching this very closly, but i would like to hear bush say something about it, if a canadian cf-18 droped a bomb on US troops... it would be a different story.
I mean, shooting down an f-16 with a rifle, come on
I feel for the soldiers killed. Being killed by the enemy is one thing, being killed by our cloest neighbor is another.
Also i hear the Americans are putting up road blocks in the Canadian investigation. :rolleyes:
I hear ya man. I don't care for apologies, as I'm sure no other Canadian does. We want some answers. We want some action to be taken to help ensure this does not happen again.
They say they died for a just cause, defending their homeland from terrorism. Well they really didn't, they were in a frickin training mission and their ally came and dropped a bomb on them. You call that sacrificing your life for your country? I don't think so.
outside looking in
4/20/02, 06:50pm
Originally posted by sbcanada
I hear ya man. I don't care for apologies, as I'm sure no other Canadian does. We want some answers. We want some action to be taken to help ensure this does not happen again.
They say they died for a just cause, defending their homeland from terrorism. Well they really didn't, they were in a frickin training mission and their ally came and dropped a bomb on them. You call that sacrificing your life for your country? I don't think so.
I have a feeling that if it was a British plane that had dropped the bomb, things would also be different. :rolleyes:
You say you want "action" taken, yet there were so many that criticized the American public for wanting "action" taken when thousands of innocent civilians died on 9/11.
I hope Bush does apologize, and I hope that the investigation uncovers the truth, whatever that may be, and I hope this is another reminder that more effort needs to be put into avoiding friendly fire accidents. But in the end, it was a tragedy, and the US can do nothing more than apologize.
OSLI, did you read my link about the helicopters? You ought to know, as if you're ever under one you'll want to duck. :D
If a British plane had done it, I would still be angry. Maybe not AS angry, but that's because you American people are so good at having people mad at you. :D
:(
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Originally posted by sbcanada
...because you American people are so good at having people mad at you. :D
Ain't dat da truth.
Americans can't do anything right. Americans are ruining it. Damned Ameicans, blah blah blah. The whole world "hates" America but let there be a problem & who is #1 on speed-dial??? We're used to it & we're also starting to get fed up with it. It was an accident. We don't intentionally target friendlies. We don't kill civilians on purpose. Even the grandest of technology goes bad. If you all want us to step back & let you take care of yourselves without our thoughtless, backstabbing, money-grubbing, superpower attitude, then contact your government. If enough people bitch loud enough we'd be glad not to send OUR soldiers to every stinky little corner of this fucked up globe. I spent my time. I have family & friends who are dead helping other countries. Maybe next time Usama or Hitler or Milosevic or Stalin or Papa Doc or any of a thousand other nitwits decide it's your country they want, we'll stay out of it. No cavalry to the rescue. No F16s, no super destroyers, no Apaches, no Marines, no Airborne Rangers, no Tomahawks. Nope, and none of the other outstanding machinery & weaponry. Oh, and we'd like reparations for the 525,014 Americans killed in WWI & WWII. Get off our back or step to the plate :mad:
end of rant[/siz]
greenfreak
4/20/02, 11:30pm
Originally posted by sbcanada
If a British plane had done it, I would still be angry. Maybe not AS angry, but that's because you American people are so good at having people mad at you. :D
Given recent history and the open wounds many of us still have, I don't find that particularly funny. You just know that if we Americans started making snide comments about "You Canadians", you would be up our asses in a second. No member here dropped a bomb on you, yet I keep hearing 'You Americans' as if we, the American members of this board, are responsible. I know you're upset about what happened but please consider that we have feelings too-couldn't it be possible that we are also upset about what happened? Making comments that start out with "Thanks to you Yanks" is hurtful. I'm asking you to please consider my feelings, as well as those other American members of this board. :(
When I said "You Yanks," I meant your military and not American members at this site.
Gonz, you talk about your soldiers dieing helping other countries, well our soldiers were there to help the AMERICANS and that's the repayment we get? I don't care if it was an accident. Those accidents are happening way to frequently, and I know with today's technology and communication that shit should not happen more than once a year.
greenfreak
4/20/02, 11:45pm
Sb I'm sorry if I overreacted but I have never experienced as much US bashing as when I started posting to message boards. It's really starting to get to me-all I ask is to consider what you would feel if someone said the same things about your country. Even if it's not specifically directed at you.
This guy did a really bad thing-whether it was justified or not, the families of the dead soldiers still lost their loved ones. Much like the families of the people who died on Sept 11th.
I don't see how dropping a bomb on Canadian soldiers could be justified. A bunch of troops with rifles are not a threat to an F-16, and they were not shooting at the F-16, they were shooting at targets in a training area.
hey, nodnod, do you think if one of us changes the subject again it'd take this time?? I'm gonna give it a shot, here we go....
How Bout Them Helicopters??? hahahaha!!!! :D
Those helipcopters suck. We need new ones. Damn Liberals!
I'm with ya there, man :headbang:
unless you wish it was the Alliance :eek:
I wish it was the Alliance. Who else? The Tories? hahahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.
greenfreak
4/21/02, 12:03am
As a child, I once saw a strange looking helicopter with two big propellers at either end of it and really thought it was a UFO. Screamed for my Mom to come see and everything-she had a good laugh.
It turned out to be some sort of military helicopter from Northrop Grumman, about 10 miles away.
Absolutely. We'd be out of debt in a week, then we'd have the interest money we could use to buy helicopters and also the ultimate luxury of uniforms for our men so they don't have to borrow anymore. :D
Originally posted by greenfreak
As a child, I once saw a strange looking helicopter with two big propellers at either end of it and really thought it was a UFO. Screamed for my Mom to come see and everything-she had a good laugh.
It turned out to be some sort of military helicopter from Northrop Grumman, about 10 miles away.
lol funny story - would have been scary to see that the first time lol
our moms don't laugh, they hide us in the basement in case of falling debris. :D
Originally posted by L. Summerton
Absolutely. We'd be out of debt in a week, then we'd have the interest money we could use to buy helicopters and also the ultimate luxury of uniforms for our men so they don't have to borrow anymore. :D
The Tories get us out of debt? Yeah, they'd slash government spending to healthcare and education, then we'd have to pay more for that, and they'd buy helicopters with the money they saved, so it's like we are paying for the helicopters.
They should take the money out of Jean Chretien's ski trip budget and buy us a whole fleet of brand new choppers. :D
what are you talking about? it's all our money, no matter which government spends it. The Tories have done a WONDERFUL job cleaning up the mess in Ontario. I'd like to see them do the in Ottawa.
Ontario is still a huge mess! You guys are in hella debt! They did a good job in Alberta though. :P
I'm not dealing with this tonight. Way too sleepy. I'll be back tomorrow. Maybe you won't have such an offensive name by then :P
outside looking in
4/21/02, 12:39am
Guess I can't edit names, huh? :D j/k
Glad the subject finally changed. I'm not very fond of country bashing, but I'm sure this forum will see plenty of that as time goes by. Where's LastLegionary when you need him? :D
outside looking in
4/21/02, 12:43am
I noticed the newbie title has changed as well. Maybe I should look and see if the whole member rankings have changed...
I can edit his name... :D
There is a thread in the town hall - too lazy sorry to copy/paste the url - fury's just changed them.
Professur
4/21/02, 12:51am
Pressure from us old members.
outside looking in
4/21/02, 01:02am
Just read the new rankings. I like them much better.
I'm kinda wondering about horse fucker's name... but I'll let those uppidy admins worry about that. ;)
Originally posted by outside looking in
Just read the new rankings. I like them much better.
I'm kinda wondering about horse fucker's name... but I'll let those uppidy admins worry about that. ;)
especially that new one---jeez, what a pain:D
:headbang: da da da da The amazing AstroBoy!!!!!
http://personal.nbnet.nb.ca/reidnd/astroboy.jpg
Gato_Solo
4/23/02, 12:21pm
Not to rehash this, but I am in the US military, and I don't think you have ever served in ANYONE'S army. Late at night, some NG pilot dropped a bomb when he shouldn't have. END OF STORY. It was a tragic mistake on the pilot's fault, and, believe it or not, we (as in folks in the military) also mourn for those lost in battle...by accident OR enemy fire. You think I enjoy going to some rat-bag country and putting my life on the line just so people like you can sit on your ass in your comfy chair and bitch about everything I do? Two words, and I don't usually use them...F U C K YOU.
Originally posted by Gato_Solo
Late at night, some NG pilot dropped a bomb when he shouldn't have. END OF STORY.
Agreed 100%. And thank you for serving in the military, regardless of country.
:( Funeral services are today.
greenfreak
4/23/02, 02:38pm
Gato, have I ever told you how proud of you I am? :cool: I thank you for serving myself and my country. Now get over here and give me some of that milk chocolate lovin' cause you're hot when you're angry. ;)
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