View Full Version : I have a dream - Black History Month
February is Black History Month - A time of reflection and an opportunity to teach our children about what has come before and how we, as a society, have changed our view of the Black people living with us. ... but has it really changed that much?
Delivered on the steps at the Lincoln Memorial in Washington D.C. on August 28, 1963. Source: Martin Luther King, Jr: The Peaceful Warrior, Pocket Books, NY 1968
Five score years ago, a great American, in whose symbolic shadow we stand signed the Emancipation Proclamation. This momentous decree came as a great beacon light of hope to millions of Negro slaves who had been seared in the flames of withering injustice. It came as a joyous daybreak to end the long night of captivity. But one hundred years later, we must face the tragic fact that the Negro is still not free. One hundred years later, the life of the Negro is still sadly crippled by the manacles of segregation and the chains of discrimination. One hundred years later, the Negro lives on a lonely island of poverty in the midst of a vast ocean of material prosperity. One hundred years later, the Negro is still languishing in the corners of American society and finds himself an exile in his own land. source (http://www.mecca.org/~crights/dream.html)
Poverty, crime, drugs and desolation still haunt the black man. Racism breathes still and we have not seen the light at the end of the tunnel.
I have a dream that my four children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character. I have a dream today.
When will this dream become a reality?
Professur
1/23/04, 12:40pm
The kids are learning that in school this month. My daughter keeps singing "we will overcome" to herself.
We've made great strides in the right directions. But I doubt that dream will ever be fully realized as long as there are differences in people. Even if the races were ever fully homogenized, the prejudice would just shift to hair color or eye color or social status...In some things, man is incapable of overcoming his nature. I fear this is one of those things...:(
Professur
1/23/04, 12:45pm
What we really need to do is put an end to reverse racist. End the black only clubs, and such.
When will this dream become a reality?
I think we'll see it in our lifetimes, it's coming, ever so slowly, but it's coming.
Ms Ann Thrope
1/23/04, 01:12pm
This is complicated. People are always looking at differences and setting up hierarchies. Not all cultures share the same prejudices however. In some countries citizens of African descent are fully integrated into the dominant society, and other ethnic groups suffer discriminatory acts.
As far as the US goes, it HAS gotten better. No more separate drinking fountains and "white only" establishments for crying out loud. And this wasn't so long ago. Reverse discrimination is a logical byproduct of trying to change long-entrenched behaviors. The pendulum will swing to center eventually. Patience, my friends. Patience. If you look across the span of history and see the decades upon decades of racism in this country, can you honestly expect it to disappear within a generation or two? without any backlash? That would only happen if we were all reasonable people, and if we were all reasonable people, there would never have been any slavery, feudalism, racism, Inquisition, Crusades, genocide, etc.
I'm with Prof on this one. There is a lot of racism in the world still. But you know - it's not all towards black people. There's plenty of 'black only' things (Ebony Magazine is one that comes to mind, I"m sure there's more buy my train is quickly derailing ...)
Anyway. I'm with Prof. Did I say that?
Ms Ann Thrope
1/23/04, 01:26pm
I'm with Prof on this one. There is a lot of racism in the world still. But you know - it's not all towards black people. There's plenty of 'black only' things (Ebony Magazine is one that comes to mind, I"m sure there's more buy my train is quickly derailing ...)
Anyway. I'm with Prof. Did I say that?
There's plenty of "female-only" and "male-only" and "children-only" stuff too. What's wrong with magazines, clubs, etc responding to niche markets? :confused:
You can read them or not. I used to read my mother's AARP magazine every month. I loved it even though I wasn't the "tarket market" at the time. :shrug:
You know, the black only clubs and such don't bother me. After all, they obviously have things in common that the average white person would have no understanding of. Same goes for Chinese, Hispanic, etc.. Oh, and White.
Professur
1/23/04, 01:32pm
It's not the existance of black's clubs and women's clubs and such that bother me. It's that if I try and open a white club, I'm a racism. Any woman can walk into any YMCA. (That's Young Men Club of America), but a guy walking into a YWCA is gonna get run out on a rail.
Get the picture?
Yup yup, that's why I said what I said. You want eclusive clubs for minorities, fine. But there will be white men's clubs too. Not to sit around and discuss the upcoming lynching, but to hang with people that are like us.
Professur
1/23/04, 01:38pm
I want stuff like Boy scouts, to be for BOYS. Men's golf to be for MEN.
Or none at all. Everyone in everything. But cut the fucking whining about double standards. Black quotas in colleges and gov't employment. Women and men having different minimun hight and strength requirements for work as cops and firefighters. Sports. All of it.
Hmmm...Seems the white male is the only minority without the comfort of minority status and the special rights and privleges it affords....:tardbang:
There's plenty of "female-only" and "male-only" and "children-only" stuff too. What's wrong with magazines, clubs, etc responding to niche markets? :confused:
You can read them or not. I used to read my mother's AARP magazine every month. I loved it even though I wasn't the "tarket market" at the time. :shrug:
It's already been said since your post (I'm slow), but it isn't the specific group only market issue. It's like PT said - if you try to open a white-only club you get in lots of trouble. Or how about an "Ivory" magazine (one may exist? I dunno). I agree with you, Ms. - if you don't like it don't read/visit the place.
But its the point of equality.
Ms Ann Thrope
1/23/04, 01:42pm
It's not the existance of black's clubs and women's clubs and such that bother me. It's that if I try and open a white club, I'm a racism. Any woman can walk into any YMCA. (That's Young Men Club of America), but a guy walking into a YWCA is gonna get run out on a rail.
Get the picture?
Sorry, but that's the breaks Prof.... children often pay for the sins of their fathers.... the original perpetrators of evil rarely suffer (unless you believe in justice after life); it is the generations after that have to clean up the mess and it's not simple, quick or easy. :shrug:
I'm able to vote and work where I please, but I never had to go to jail for these rights and privileges, never had to go on a hunger strike where I was tied up and a tube shoved down my throat to force feed me. There are countless individuals that suffered brutality I can barely imagine so that women had the right to vote. They never saw the fruits of their labors. Likewise, I think of the generations of blacks that lived and died praying for equality and never saw it. The people of all races and colors who fought for civil rights, who braved mob lynchings and saw crosses burning but still stayed their course. Many of them died before they saw things improve.
I feel worse for those people than for some white male of European descent whining because he can't get into some stupid club. :shrug:
unclehobart
1/23/04, 01:43pm
Anyone ever notice that black history month is the shortest month? Its a plan by 'the man'.
paul_valaru
1/23/04, 01:51pm
I remember back in CEGEP (Junior College) they had the black and 3rd world club, if you where of any minority, you where automatically entered into it, whether you knew it or not.
And since you where entered, the budgeting was done by members of a club, so they the 30 people who where active had a huge budget.
well on kid in teh sci fi club (45 active members) got pissed, and petitioned to open a club called white and first world...they turned him down. He started a petition and everything, it was actually hilarious, cause he was black, he fought to have his name removed from the member lsit of Black and 3rd world.
I had a point, I know I did.
crap
I'm thinking this thread has confirmed my earliest post in it...;)
paul_valaru
1/23/04, 01:57pm
I'm thinking this thread has confirmed my earliest post in it...;)
yeah, that was my point
I won't even go into the fight I had to get my name removed from the jewish club. Not that I mind being jewish, just they stood for things I didn't
It's not the existance of black's clubs and women's clubs and such that bother me. It's that if I try and open a white club, I'm a racism. Any woman can walk into any YMCA. (That's Young Men Club of America), but a guy walking into a YWCA is gonna get run out on a rail.
Get the picture?
Hey Prof... every club starts out as a white-only men's club...they just don't call it that...and it stays that way until *gasp* a black guy joins or a woman joins. The members fight to keep it the way it was and complain that they have to fbend their ideals to allow anyone in because of leftist ideals etc...
Professur
1/23/04, 04:40pm
Really? So I uess you have no problem with wimmen in brasseries?
Really? So I uess you have no problem with wimmen in brasseries?
Women in Brassieres?
http://www.lindisima.com/images/bra.ht4.jpg
Not really...no. :)
Women working for beer manufacturers? I don't catch that one...
I was thinking about the BIG deal about Tiger Woods being the first black man in the PGA, or people getting all excited cause a black man breaks the colour-barrier. It should be 'nothing special' when that happens..but it's all over the news.
Professur
1/23/04, 04:54pm
Taverns, dude.
And I don't have a problem with org's being all everyone. But I do have a problem with women in the NBA, while there's a WNBA in existance. With girls in Boy scouts, while Girl Guides is there for them. That's my problem.
and of course, women in Brasseries.
I wonder what King would have said if someone had pointed out to him that Lincoln didn't really care whether slavery existed or was abolished. The Emancipation Proclamation was nothing more than a rallying cry for the North, which was losing the war at the time.
I think we'll see it in our lifetimes, it's coming, ever so slowly, but it's coming.
:rofl4: :shrug:
Hmmm...Seems the white male is the only minority without the comfort of minority status and the special rights and privleges it affords....:tardbang:
Not so. White males over forty are protected under anti-discrimination law. :D
The kids are learning that in school this month. My daughter keeps singing "we will overcome" to herself.
At least she's not singing "Burn Baby Burn" (the Jimmy Collier and Reverend Frederick Douglass Kirkpatrick one from the Watts riots, BTW).
drkavnger99
1/23/04, 05:36pm
As ususal I join the debate way to late (hey that rhymes) but I agree with alot of whats been said except I don't accept Ms. explaination for things and I don't bow to that analogy that we pay for our fore-fathers mistakes. I mean if you want to look at history of the US we too were once held by another type of discrimination we wanted to be free from the british (no offense hopefully will be taken) and thier rule at the time. I really don't see them bending to serve for their mistakes these days. Agreed slavery, exploitation, and all of the above are things that I/we are not proud of but doesn't mean we have to give them more rights than we have (thats why its called equal rights).
freako104
1/23/04, 06:07pm
I think it will happen when people stop juding each other by colour of skin, and all prejudices go away. and racism too.
I think it will happen when people stop juding each other by colour of skin, and all prejudices go away. and racism too.
Nice theory, never happen.
freako104
1/23/04, 06:35pm
I know but I do hope for it
It's not the existance of black's clubs and women's clubs and such that bother me. It's that if I try and open a white club, I'm a racism. Any woman can walk into any YMCA. (That's Young Men Club of America), but a guy walking into a YWCA is gonna get run out on a rail.
Get the picture?
It's an annoying double standard :nono:
freako104
1/23/04, 10:49pm
double standards suck they keep people separated. this is part of the goddamn problem
Thulsa Doom
1/23/04, 11:41pm
wait wait... what black clubs dont let any white people in it?
After all, they obviously have things in common that the average white person would have no understanding of.
Whoa there Kimosabe. You saying that whites & blacks are different, besides melatonin? That blows a giant hole in the entire can't we all get along crowds argument. We're the same, remember?
.... children often pay for the sins of their fathers....
I feel worse for those people than for some white male of European descent whining because he can't get into some stupid club. :shrug:
Then we may as well nuke the world for we're no better than our past. If you look far enough back you'll see homo sapiens killing homo erectus'. Life isn't fair. Don't expect it to be.
All these inequities exist today. In Africa, south & central America, Asia. Until all women & blacks are equal aren't all women & blacks still in bondage? Go, fight the evil-doers. End oppresion. While you're at it, figure out how to walk on water because that's what it will take.
Allow white men their freedom. We didn't reluctantly pass it around to lose it ourselves. Those white men of European decent fought & died so we all could enjoy freedom. Don't knock 'em.
Do not judge previous centuries or millennia by current standards. All things are not equal.
freako104
1/24/04, 02:11am
wait wait... what black clubs dont let any white people in it?
depends on the club. some say sure we need to integrate to end racism and the like. some say no.
We're the same, remember?
We are essentially the same, the differences are cultural. Even if we were all the same uniform color of purple, prejudice would still exist. For instance, I promise Bill, Hilary, George and Laura all think they're better than you and me.
There is one race on earth, it's the human race. Sometimes I think it's too bad we're trying to destroy it.
wait wait... what black clubs dont let any white people in it?
You know, I've been to a couple of blues clubs where the doormen didn't say it in so many words, but the sentiment was quite clear.
We are essentially the same, the differences are cultural.
Which explains the African & the American problem but not the black & white problem since we're all from the same culture.
Ms Ann Thrope
1/24/04, 12:29pm
Which explains the African & the American problem but not the black & white problem since we're all from the same culture.
Perhaps there is one culture, Gonz. Could you describe it for me? I'm sincere, btw, not being sarcastic. My own experience, you see, has been one of a multiplicity of cultures: urban culture, youth culture, the culture of the ethnic community I grew up in, etc. I have never been able to identify "one" American culture, but have enjoyed and rejected elements of many. Often these cultures are in conflict with each other, but that's the beauty of life in a multicultural world. It's complex, varied and always interesting.
Our culture is centered around the individual & his/her aspirations & accomplishments. It focuses on the individual & their place in the community.
success in school, success in the workplace, success in entrepeneurship, success in family, success in community. The individual is driven, culturally, to succeed.
Ms Ann Thrope
1/24/04, 12:36pm
but that sounds like a culture based on acquisitions and economic success.... :confused:
what about music? the arts? the spoken word? theater? celebrations and their rituals? the foods prepared to mark certain holidays?
a culture based on success sounds very poor and empty, it sounds TERRIBLE in my opinion.... :(
Each of those has may succeed economically.
The more economic status one has, the (assumed) better they are at their chosen field. Madonna must be outstanding & the Guess Who are only ok. (remember, this doesn't include the evil amongst us , marketing)
Ms Ann Thrope
1/24/04, 12:48pm
Sorry, but I still don't understand what you're getting at. :confused:
I don't associate economics with culture. They have some bearing on an individual's ability to produce and consume culture, but not necessarily. The library has all the books one could wish to read for free. Museums have free days, many cities have free concerts.
I have always thought of culture as the outward manifestations of social groups that share certain bonds. Whether it is flamenco or swing or ballet, it's all culture. It doesn't matter if it's Rachmaninoff or Eminem or the Beatles, it is someone's culture. Whether one has a larger gross than the other on a tax return has nothing to do with it in my opinion.
The economics are part of the culture.
example: Culture Club puts out 3(?) albums. #1 has no success & CC hasn't changed their status.
#2 is a smash hit. CC now sells more of #1, due to the success of #2 & more people enjoy their music. They have spread art among the masses. #3 sucks & CC breaks up because the people moved on.
All the while, Metallica puts out yearly albums that affect larger & larger audiences, building a base. They now have (x) number of albums, each more successful than the previous & they have been a mainstay for over a decade. Their audience has expanded & grown, as have they.
Who is the more representative of the culture? CC or Metalligreed? One builds a foundation on solid music, the other on marketing.
Ms Ann Thrope
1/24/04, 01:07pm
I understand that for you economics and culture are inextricably intertwined. This saddens me. I don't perceive culture the same way. Whether or not something achieves economic success and builds a large audience has absolutely nothing to do with my enjoyment of it. There are musicians whose work I enjoy far more than either of the two bands you mentioned. There are writers, musicians, filmmakers, gardeners, bakers, cooks, winemakers, sculptors, architects, composers, poets, actors, singers, etc etc who will NEVER become household names, but are valid and important elements in the cultural fabric. The fame and/or success someone achieves has NOTHING to do with the value of their cultural production (for me).
You are tying personal enjoyment to culture. Culture affects the large scale.
Everbody knows Michelangelo. He affected the culture, at large.
1/1000 knows Lichtenstein. He affects the rich & those involved in the art community, not the culture.
Ms Ann Thrope
1/24/04, 01:24pm
Culture IS personal. It can be a solitary experience or a large group event. The point being that for me, there is no one single over-riding culture in this country. There are niches in the niches. There is the culture experienced by youths in affluent suburbs, and the culture that those in economically depressed urban areas experience. Both are valid manifestations of the social groups those teenagers form.
And I'm uncertain how Michelangelo affected the culture at large. He had a certain impact on late Renaissance and Baroque forms of representation, but who really gives a shit about that today? And they shouldn't. While Lichtenstein may be an unfamiliar name to many, the imagery in his work would probably have greater resonance to a larger audience today (benday dot patterns forming pop culture images derived from comic books). Either way, they are irrelevant to many cultures in this country, and there is no reason either of them should have a position of importance in the lives of most people.
Culture IS personal.
And so we seperate, irreparably, for I think culture is the whole.
Ms Ann Thrope
1/24/04, 01:43pm
And so we seperate, irreparably, for I think culture is the whole.
:mope:
:toast: anyway... for I believe it is the differences that make our world interesting, not the similarities :D
There is the culture experienced by youths in affluent suburbs, and the culture that those in economically depressed urban areas experience.
How are they different?
Let's look at an average day in teh life of an American teen.
Parent yells at them to get their ass out of bed.
They shower, eat breakfast & dress.
They school.
They end the schoolday by going to a freinds house.
They go home for dinner.
They do chores.
They study.
They go to bed.
There are an infinite numbers of variations of that theme but that is an American teenagers day. The diferences are individual (what they eat, where they study, what chores they do) but the grand scale is the same. There are still only 88 keys on the keyboard.
Ms Ann Thrope
1/24/04, 01:48pm
that sounds an awful lot like the day of ANY teen in ANY 1st world country..... not just American :shrug:
Which explains the African & the American problem but not the black & white problem since we're all from the same culture.
One wonders if you actually know anyone who belives differently than you do. Black Americans have a completely different culture than white Americans, Gonz. The fact that you are unwilling or unable to accept this in no way changes it.For instance, a black man in most of New York City will not try to hail a cab because only an idiot would believe one would stop for him. This is a cultural cifference between him and you. The same culture. :disgust: You continually show no understanding for things you don't wish to accept, but I'm afraid that this does not make these things nonexistent. It's an interesting little world your living in, too bad it's not the real one. :shrug:
A black man (or woman) can have the same opportunities as a white man (or woman) in America. They simply have to be willing to work at least twice as hard to get it.
A black man (or woman) can have the same opportunities as a white man (or woman) in America. They simply have to be willing to work at least twice as hard to get it.
That's the first thing you've said I agree with. I wonder how the blacks I know get along without killing themselves? Seems your world is failrly awful. My world solves problems.
Yes, they do have to work harder. Wanna know why. Because those that are part of "your" world have fucked everything up. You can't blame "my" world on the criminal element or the fact that black children are born out of wedlock & without fathers 3 out of 4 times.
The average white person is scared of the average black man. Why? Violence. You could almost corelate "white America" & "black America" with Israel & Palestine. Contemplate that for awhile.
I can guarantee a way out of poverty by 3 simple rules.
1) Finish High-school.
2) Never, ever quit a job without already having a repleacement. Never.
3)Do not have children out of wedlock.
99/100 will be, unquestionably & permanently, out of poverty in less than one generation following those rules. The remaining one couldn't pour piss from a boot with the instructions on the heels & is a natural born loser. We need them too.
Thank you for making my point.
So, the good Rev Doctor was wrong too?
I have a dream that my four children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.
Thulsa Doom
1/24/04, 05:55pm
You know, I've been to a couple of blues clubs where the doormen didn't say it in so many words, but the sentiment was quite clear.
but you were allowed in correct? thats when you STRUT in like yer king of the world. Ive been to plenty of all white affairs where people give me a what the hell do you think yer doing here look. I love it. i like forcing acceptance. its a thrill. let me know what blues clubs do that. ill go there and make a fuss about them not having Johnny Lang or Charlie Musslewhite on the line up.
Are you suggesting that you aren't a Caucasian, TD.
Thulsa Doom
1/24/04, 06:01pm
The average white person is scared of the average black man. Why? Violence.
So you are scared of black people because you think they are violent or do you not consider yourself average?
Nah, I'm a lot of things unpleasant but average is not one of them.
Thulsa Doom
1/24/04, 06:10pm
Are you suggesting that you aren't a Caucasian, TD.
what would make you think i was?
Thulsa Doom
1/24/04, 06:12pm
Nah, I'm a lot of things unpleasant but average is not one of them.
and thank god for that. ;)
what would make you think i was?
I don't assume. When you wrote Ive been to plenty of all white affairs...now that made me assume
but you were allowed in correct? thats when you STRUT in like yer king of the world. Ive been to plenty of all white affairs where people give me a what the hell do you think yer doing here look. I love it. i like forcing acceptance. its a thrill. let me know what blues clubs do that. ill go there and make a fuss about them not having Johnny Lang or Charlie Musslewhite on the line up.
No, I was not. They would have been uncomfortable having me there, and I would have been uncomfortable being there. Tolerated it not the same as allowed. This in no way lends any credence to Gonz's statements about "average" blacks or whites, that was the very definition of bigotry. I was not afraid, and I don't think anything untoward would have happened had I gone in and listened for a while (okay, I might have had difficulty being served). I understood where they were coming from, and feel no need to shove my personal beliefs down someone else's throat.
...now that made me assume
Why? Haven't you?
Thulsa Doom
1/24/04, 07:57pm
No, I was not. They would have been uncomfortable having me there, and I would have been uncomfortable being there. Tolerated it not the same as allowed.
Im too clueless generally to know any better or pick up any vibes. and if i do it only encourages me. Im of the Animal House school of thinking: WAIT TILL OTIS SEES US! HE LOVES US!
Im too clueless generally to know any better or pick up any vibes. and if i do it only encourages me. Im of the Animal House school of thinking: WAIT TILL OTIS SEES US! HE LOVES US!
Well, if we're honest, more people use your philosophy than mine. :D
Why? Haven't you?
Actually, no. Not since I was a kid at least. Wait, there are family gatherings.
freako104
1/24/04, 10:14pm
How are they different?
Let's look at an average day in teh life of an American teen.
Parent yells at them to get their ass out of bed.
They shower, eat breakfast & dress.
They school.
They end the schoolday by going to a freinds house.
They go home for dinner.
They do chores.
They study.
They go to bed.
There are an infinite numbers of variations of that theme but that is an American teenagers day. The diferences are individual (what they eat, where they study, what chores they do) but the grand scale is the same. There are still only 88 keys on the keyboard.
thats not the life of every teen gonz. some shower at night, some sadly are HS dropouts, some dont go to a friends house after school, and some dont study.
So, the good Rev Doctor was wrong too?
Not the point, but look around. Things have improved for miniorities, but I don't really see us any closer to the quote (do you know any blacks or hispanics who judge other blacks or hispanics by how dark their skin is?). Point was the world you see around you is not the one you're living in. If it isn't workable in the real world, it isn't a solution no matter how much you want it to be.
Not the one I'm living in? Maybe then you can explain to me why, of 12 negro friends, 9 wear pinstripes (Versace, not county) and the other 3 are artists & choose to hate pinstripes.
They all came from unbroken homes. ('cept one & his folks were legally married & divorced)
Not one of them say life is a bowl of cherries (nor do the white guys) but they admit that 99% of the problem is what I go on & on about.
It's very workable. People are too lazy to work.
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