View Full Version : Anti-abortionists
would you? with advance knowledge?
http://www.fortwayne.com/images/fortwayne/journalgazette/7761/60233329547.jpg
Story (http://www.fortwayne.com/mld/journalgazette/7760584.htm)
freako104
1/21/04, 10:18am
if there is no chance for the child/children to survive or if the girl doesnt want to be a mother(if she wants teh abortion) i will sya yes. but I would hope abortion isnt the first choice. ever. but it is a choice
i've been lucky....and i hope i never have to make that decision. :)
AlphaTroll
1/21/04, 10:48am
If there was a chance that the child would be deformed to such an extent that he / she would never be able to lead a life where any quality exists (i.e if the child could never have a chance at a life free from pain caused by severe deformities etc, beyond the reasonable care of parents & minders) OR if carrying the child full term is a threat either to my own life or it's life OR if the child was conceived during rape I would definitely consider an abortion.
I use the term 'child' very loosely here as I don't believe a foetus is a child............yes I know, the argument of when a foetus becomes a child / human being is a whole other debate.
Good on that lady for going through with the pregnancy and giving birth to two beautiful little girls, I hope there is some way that they can be seperated in future (don't know if I missed that part in the article), so each of them can lead a healthy, prosperous life as an individual who isn't fully dependant of anyone else for anything at all.
Uki Chick
1/21/04, 12:05pm
If there was a chance that the child would be deformed to such an extent that he / she would never be able to lead a life where any quality exists (i.e if the child could never have a chance at a life free from pain caused by severe deformities etc, beyond the reasonable care of parents & minders) OR if carrying the child full term is a threat either to my own life or it's life OR if the child was conceived during rape I would definitely consider an abortion.
I hope there is some way that they can be seperated in future (don't know if I missed that part in the article), so each of them can lead a healthy, prosperous life as an individual who isn't fully dependant of anyone else for anything at all.
I agree with you there. I would probably consider it as well if it was due to a rape or the child will suffer through their whole life or myself.
Unfortunately, in this case, the girls can never be seperated because they share too many organs.
If the children are born conjoined or with slight problems, they have every right to live as well, and I think this girl made a good decision in continuing her pregnancy.
i wouldn't have an abortion because of rape...childs mine as well...
paul_valaru
1/21/04, 12:14pm
as a man I have no right to an opinion on this subject. When we choose whether or not to use a condom, that is our last choice until the baby is born, in my opinion.
But I will voice what I feel anyway.
Abortion should not be birth control, and not taken lightly
It should be the mothers choice 100% not the goverments, not any religious orders.
If the tests showed somethign was majoorly wrong I don't know what I would do (If I was a woman).
a. it's your child.
b. it could end up being a burden on you, that if you go through with this, the next 40 years of your life are spoken for.
I have a nephew who is , I guess autistic, and my sister loves him, I love him, but sometimes you here what she has to go through, the costs, the emotional drainign days.
Now I'm sure hse never wishes she never had him, but sometimes I look at her and wonder if she knew when she was pregnant, would she still have gone through with it.
AlphaTroll
1/21/04, 12:24pm
i wouldn't have an abortion because of rape...childs mine as well...
tonksy, I guess that makes you a stronger person than me because I know I'd come to resent that child. And I'd never want to raise a child in a home where he/she does not feel 100% loved, it's just not fair to that little person.
Perhaps I'd feel differently if I had children of my own, I admit. But to me a child is a very special little being, deserving of the best at all times - especially from their parents. I am not sure I'd be able to provide that if the child was conceived in such a hateful way.
Pauly: you have every right to an opinion on this matter. Yes, the choice is ultimately that of the woman, but the man will be just as greatly affected by it.
I think I agree with AT's sentiments mostly. But then again, kinda with tonks, too (on the rape bit).
I hope I'm never in a position where I must seriously consider abortion, that's for sure.
But I know someone who was "molested" (raped) and got pregnant. I can't imagine the pain she had to go through simply contemplating the decision.
I remember when I was aborted....:retard:
AlphaTroll
1/21/04, 02:42pm
Squiggs, there's a difference between aborted and contorted :p
IDLEchild
1/21/04, 03:29pm
She decided "to fully give the situation to God," and trusted that she would be back in time for the babies' birth, then scheduled for early to mid-February.
..err...yeah...ok..
although they don't share all organs, they share enough for there to be no option for seperation.
They shall live out their mercifully short lives conjoined.
I've done some reading on this in the past...with the % of shared organs and the heart troubles that they have in one of the hearts...their life expentancy is somewhere in excess of 1 month, but chances are..less than 4 months.
Now...if I knew that my children had such a massive birth-defect and would only live a few months..most of them in the hospital... I don't think that I could go through with it. I'd abort and try again.
I've said it before...here it is again. I'm a pro-life pro-choice agnostic...
Abortion is not a form of birth-control like condoms or the pill, nor should it be thought of as such.
Abortion is the choice of the parents and should not be controlled by GVT, friends, family or Church
so bish...you think that if a single woman finds herself in the family way she should inform mr. wednesday night and ask his permission to abort his child? i think if you are in a relationship with someone you have the moral obligation to make the decision a joint one....but not in all situations.
Professur
1/21/04, 03:59pm
would you? with advance knowledge?
http://www.fortwayne.com/images/fortwayne/journalgazette/7761/60233329547.jpg
Look at their faces. Look at them. Deformed? Life expectance of months? Maybe. But they're still people. Living, breathing people. If they only have months to live, at least give them those months. Let them live what life God gave them. And let them be happy, if only for those few months.
sam_fisher
1/21/04, 05:04pm
I use the term 'child' very loosely here as I don't believe a foetus is a child............yes I know, the argument of when a foetus becomes a child / human being is a whole other debate.
i strongly disagree with you. think about it, you were once a feotus, would you want somebody murdering you before you before you had any say in the matter.
IMHO, abortion is murder. murder at any stage of pregnancy...
you're damn right i'm anit-abortionist...just think, one of those baby's who were aborted may have grown up to find the cure cancer or aids....and now we'll never know...
man cannot play the role of God.
sam.
But you can't seriously base your judgements on "woulda ... shoulda ..." circumstances. Yeah. One of those aborted babies might have been the one to cure cancer. But since there's NO WAY of knowing, the point is moot and doesn't even make a logical defense.
paul_valaru
1/21/04, 05:06pm
one of those baby's who were aborted may have found the cure cancer or aids....and now we'll never know...
sam.
with that logic one of them could have been the next....
the person who kills half the human race, the destroyer of world etc.
Professur
1/21/04, 05:06pm
But claiming that killing the baby would make the mother's life better is?
You talkin to me, Prof?
I don't think killing a child to make the mom's life better is a very valid argument, either. Because "better" would have to be defined and accepted.
I suppose I'm more pro-choice than anti-abortion. I do not believe in abortion for birth control purposes. I believe that abortion should be a last resort in special circumstances - ie - rape, severe mental/physical retardation (disgression advised), etc. If giving birth to a child kills the mom, I think that should be taken into consideration.
sam_fisher
1/21/04, 05:11pm
so murder is ok with you? just think if somebody had killed you before you could speak, hear, or touch.
sam.
paul_valaru
1/21/04, 05:12pm
so murder is ok with you? just think if somebody had killed you before you could speak, hear, or touch.
sam.
see you veiw it as murder, I don't.
In fact in my relegion is is not even a human being (with a soul etc) until the child is born.
If someone had killed me before I could speak, hear, or touch - I don't think my opinion would matter much, eh? ;)
Your logic is based on "what if"s, and that just isn't very valid in this case. At least that's my take on it.
:shrug:
see you veiw it as murder, I don't.
In fact in my relegion is is not even a human being (with a soul etc) until the child is born.
really?they outlaw tattoos but abortion is okey doke?
Professur
1/21/04, 05:19pm
Amazing how often the word Rape comes out when you're talking to Pro-Choicers. As for retardation, have a long talk with Aunty Em. She lives with that daily. She's the only one who's point of view I respect on the matter. But I've seen cases where retarded children get better. Through chemical treatments, therapy, and loving attention. If you make abortion the standard treatment for retardation ... well, what's your definition of retardation? IQ under 140? Soon could be. As for putting the mother's life at risk .... I beg your pardon, but that's damn few and far between. And it's a doctor advising. Not a mother walking into a clinic.
AlphaTroll
1/21/04, 05:19pm
i strongly disagree with you. think about it, you were once a feotus, would you want somebody murdering you before you before you had any say in the matter.
IMHO, abortion is murder. murder at any stage of pregnancy...
you're damn right i'm anit-abortionist...just think, one of those baby's who were aborted may have grown up to find the cure cancer or aids....and now we'll never know...
man cannot play the role of God.
sam.
And God cannot play the role of man, which is why he gave us a little thing called a brain....I'm pretty sure he expects us to use it too. With that brain we are able to grasp concepts such as 'free will' - a little something extremely important to the Christian doctrine....the Big Man himself said so.
So, with that free will comes responsibilities - if you choose to have unprotected sex & become pregnant, deal with it - abortion's not a quick fix. However, if you become pregnant and it's a threat to your health or the child's or if ye were raped then abortion could be a plausible solution. And ye know what, God's a good oke really, not some kind of whip carrying guy just waiting for us to make mistakes so he can punish us, I reckon he'd understand the reasons.
And saying 'the child could have been the one to cure cancer' etc is typical religious emotional BS. Yeah he could have cured cancer....then again, that's what Hitler's mommy said about him. Thing is we can't base decisions that affect our lives so drammatically on overly emotional outbursts or what if's. In these type of situations rationality is best.
But anyway, you're entitled to your opinion.
Amazing how often the word Rape comes out when you're talking to Pro-Choicers. As for retardation, have a long talk with Aunty Em. She lives with that daily. She's the only one who's point of view I respect on the matter. But I've seen cases where retarded children get better. Through chemical treatments, therapy, and loving attention. If you make abortion the standard treatment for retardation ... well, what's your definition of retardation? IQ under 140? Soon could be. As for putting the mother's life at risk .... I beg your pardon, but that's damn few and far between. And it's a doctor advising. Not a mother walking into a clinic.
That's why I said disgression adviced. I think the mental or physical retardation would have to be extremely severe. It's not something you can just lable as an iq. Like I said, I think abortion should be an absolute last resort. But it shouldn't be ruled out altogether. Women at risk far and few between? Good, that's abortions due to that nature far and few between which means less of them.
Rape being used by pro-choicers ... Um ... I don't even know where to start. I'm not sure what you mean. Have you known anyone raped and had to face the decision of whether or not to keep the child or not?
Professur
1/21/04, 05:26pm
No. Actually All of the women I know who had abortions weren't raped at all. But every time I have a conversation with a pro choicer, rape always gets mentionned.
sam_fisher
1/21/04, 05:28pm
And God cannot play the role of man, which is why he gave us a little thing called a brain....I'm pretty sure he expects us to use it too. With that brain we are able to grasp concepts such as 'free will' - a little something extremely important to the Christian doctrine....the Big Man himself said so.God also gave us a soul from the second we're convieved.
so an unborn child doesn't deserve free will, his or her life not counted? just think about not being able to plea for your life before its taken from you...
sam.
Professur
1/21/04, 05:30pm
I always liked the argument that the child would be better off dead than living with the mother. Or the handicap. Or at all.
AlphaTroll
1/21/04, 05:31pm
Amazing how often the word Rape comes out when you're talking to Pro-Choicers. As for retardation, have a long talk with Aunty Em. She lives with that daily. She's the only one who's point of view I respect on the matter. But I've seen cases where retarded children get better. Through chemical treatments, therapy, and loving attention. If you make abortion the standard treatment for retardation ... well, what's your definition of retardation? IQ under 140? Soon could be. As for putting the mother's life at risk .... I beg your pardon, but that's damn few and far between. And it's a doctor advising. Not a mother walking into a clinic.
So Prof, you saying my opinion would only be valid if I was raped & got pregnant from it? And yeah, rape is a common discussion point for pro-choicers, but then the religious garbage warbled out by anit-abortionists can be mind boggling at times. And my definition of retardation is not something like Downe's or autism, it's more along the lines of the child not ever being able to really live....barely above the point of being like an animal and in some cases worse (I know it sounds harsh, but I've seen it and I've seen what having such a child can do to a family....the total unconditional love vs remorse vs anger vs guilt, it's a never ending emotional rollercoaster and unfortunately the child in question has no idea) - it can tear families apart and I think the worst for the mom is watching her child suffer through it every day.
Ah. I can tell you why I mention it. I've already referenced her, and we'll call her April, as that's her name. She was molested as a child - a mere 12 years old. Got pregnant. As a child yourself, you shouldn't even be forced to think about such things. Her father passed away when she was 9, and her oldest brother did soon after, leaving her and one older brother with their alcoholic mom. April, at the tender age of 12, had to study her choices carefully. Bring this child in the world or abort? Fortunately this was quite some years ago and abortion wasn't a major factor. She decided to keep the child. Gave birth at age 13. She's still just a child herself.
So now you have this child bringing another child into the world. She can't support it. Her mom can't support it. And when she graduates from high school - her child will be starting first grade.
If you want to know the end - she did have the baby. Gave birth to a beautiful son. I don't know if she made the right choice, and it's not mine to make or question anyway. She kept her son for six months, but realized there was no way she could provide a life for him. She ended up giving him for adoption.
Was it better that she had the child and then let him up for adoption? Or should she have aborted? Doesn't matter now - what's done is done. And he is a fine human being, as is she.
I guess now I'm just rambling. But I swear there was reasoning ...
there is just no perfect solution to this problem...some say it's wrong...some say it isn't...some say for this and some say for that...it's a heady issue....but if abortions are illegal they will still happen...with direg gresults at times. i have no stomach for abortion and i cannot conceive of what situation would lead me to that decision...but i respect the rights of other women to make this decision for themselves...because it's her business...and her partner if he is around...and god....i prefer to let him handle that condemning shit...goes against my christian nature :p
AlphaTroll
1/21/04, 05:35pm
God also gave us a soul from the second we're convieved.
so an unborn child doesn't deserve free will, his or her life not counted? just think about not being able to plea for your life before its taken from you...
sam.
Dude, it's a foetus. It has no concept of pain, life, or anything at all. If it doesn't know it has a life - how can it plead for it?
All your arguments seem to be founded in emotion and playing the 'imagine this was you' card.......got anything else up yer sleeve?
Professur
1/21/04, 05:38pm
Dude, it's a foetus. It has no concept of pain, life, or anything at all. If it doesn't know it has a life - how can it plead for it?
All your arguments seem to be founded in emotion and playing the 'imagine this was you' card.......got anything else up yer sleeve?
Try this. If you injure me, I can sue you for potential lost earnings. I might have lost my job tomorrow. Doesn't matter. What about the child's potential?
sam_fisher
1/21/04, 05:41pm
its just distrubing to me to see children aborted everyday. and people talking about animal rights...damn....
sam.
Sam - you have a point. And I'm sure an "animal rights" thread would open a whole can of worms here. :D
I guess I dont' see how people can say it's 100% wrong and keep their mind closed. :shrug:
AlphaTroll
1/21/04, 05:45pm
Your potential worth is based on past earnings, level of education and how long you could have forseeably kept on working. (and contributing to the government's coffers, which is why they make such laws - if you lose your earning potential it means they have to pay you welfare and so on....quick solution is for them to make me pay - that way I cough up double and their pockets stay nicely lined).
What would you base the potential of a foetus on?
sam_fisher
1/21/04, 05:49pm
Dude, it's a foetus. It has no concept of pain, life, or anything at all. If it doesn't know it has a life - how can it plead for it?
what do you base this on? do you know? are you basing this on the fact you once were a foetus?
All your arguments seem to be founded in emotion and playing the 'imagine this was you' card.......got anything else up yer sleeve?
it could have been me, you or anybody here.....and yes i have something else up my sleeve..its acually between both my sleeves...its called a heart.
sam.
sam_fisher
1/21/04, 05:54pm
What would you base the potential of a foetus on?
humans have great potential for anything...especially when given the chance.:)
You mean on your sleeve, not between them. ;)
AlphaTroll
1/21/04, 05:58pm
what do you base this on? do you know? are you basing this on the fact you once were a foetus?
it could have been me, you or anybody here.....and yes i have something else up my sleeve..its acually between both my sleeves...its called a heart.
sam.
Basing it on medical fact - Many physicians and researchers into fetal development, who are not pro-choice, believe that synaptic connections within the fetus' brain are necessary to perceive pain. These are not formed until well into the third trimester, when fewer than 1% of all pregnancy terminations are done.
And
The issue of fetal pain was addressed by a working group appointed by the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists in the United Kingdom. The panel consisted of experts in fetal development, law and bioethics. Dr. Anne McLaren headed the group. She commented: "Fetal awareness of pain is a very emotive topic, of particular concern to pregnant women, but we have tried to approach it without preconceptions, to examine the scientific evidence dispassionately, and to identify areas where further research is urgently needed.'' 1
The group determined that pain can only be felt by a fetus after nerve connections became established between two parts of its brain: the cortex and the thalamus. This happens about 26 weeks from conception. Professor Maria Fitzgerald of University College London, author of the working group's report, says that "little sensory input" reaches the brain of the developing fetus before 26 weeks. "Therefore reactions to noxious stimuli cannot be interpreted as feeling or perceiving pain."
And excuse me while I extend my arm towards the screen, raise my middle finger and salute you for implying that I do not have a heart....anyone who knows me would know that a statement like that really deserves no other reply.
sam_fisher
1/21/04, 05:59pm
peace all...sorry i'm stubborn, but everybody has they're own beliefs....
and Rose, you're dead sexy:D
AlphaTroll
1/21/04, 06:00pm
LOL :rofl4: way to relieve the tension Sam! Kuddos for that ;)
Professur
1/21/04, 06:00pm
What would you base the potential of a foetus on?
That's the real question, isn't it.
AlphaTroll
1/21/04, 06:04pm
That's the real question, isn't it.
No, that's just a statement masquerading as a question.
freako104
1/21/04, 06:07pm
Dude, it's a foetus. It has no concept of pain, life, or anything at all. If it doesn't know it has a life - how can it plead for it?
All your arguments seem to be founded in emotion and playing the 'imagine this was you' card.......got anything else up yer sleeve?
a foetus is a living thing isnt it? thats the argument I have heard from many pro-lifers. I am for choice as I said btu Id rather adoption be thought of first before abortion. abortion should be the last thought.
AlphaTroll
1/21/04, 06:13pm
Plants are also living things, but they don't KNOW it do they? I mean, have you ever heard a carrot defending it's right to live?
And I don't mean to be insulting to anyone with that statement, it's just to me a foetus may be a living thing, but is not yet a person. And by the looks of it you guys seem to think I think it's OK to run wild & have abortions as your whim - not so. I just don't see it as murder and I don't think a woman's right to choose should be questioned. After all it's not a decision one makes lightly and yes, abortion should in all cases be the very last resort, but sometimes it's the only one.
sam_fisher
1/21/04, 06:17pm
LOL :rofl4: way to relieve the tension Sam! Kuddos for that ;)
tension sucks...:toast:
sam_fisher
1/21/04, 06:21pm
a foetus is a living thing isnt it? thats the argument I have heard from many pro-lifers. I am for choice as I said btu Id rather adoption be thought of first before abortion. abortion should be the last thought.:beardbng:i agree.
AlphaTroll
1/21/04, 06:32pm
tension sucks...:toast:
Yeah well, it's bound to happen with topics like these - it's an emotional thing really and there's no righ/wrong conclusion.
:smoke: <-------- will toast ye with that.
*toasts with Alpha and hugs Sam*
:D
Freako - I won't try to open a new argument - but are you saying that adoption is better than abortion in *most* cases?
freako104
1/21/04, 07:14pm
in most cases yes but not in all cases.
paul_valaru
1/21/04, 07:44pm
peace all...sorry i'm stubborn, but everybody has they're own beliefs....
and Rose, you're dead sexy:D
agree with that..the everyone has the own beleifs part
I also agree rose is dead sexy, but that wasn't what I was tryihg to say
paul_valaru
1/21/04, 07:45pm
a foetus is a living thing isnt it? thats the argument I have heard from many pro-lifers. I am for choice as I said btu Id rather adoption be thought of first before abortion. abortion should be the last thought.
hey I'm pro choice, I always think the adoption choice is better
from personal experience
Professur
1/21/04, 08:32pm
Here's an option that should make everyone happy.
All women are entitled to exactly one abortion. But, that abortion involves complete removal of the uterus.
From the pro-choice, you're not forced to keep a baby you obviously don't want. And you're already ready to undergo a surgical proceedure anyways.
From the pro-life side. She'll never, ever make that mistake again. And she won't have any further kids to pass on her warped opinions about the value of a human life.
Everyone happy?
freako104
1/21/04, 09:48pm
hey I'm pro choice, I always think the adoption choice is better
from personal experience
i feel the same way. I thought i made it clear?
freako104
1/21/04, 10:03pm
if not read my earlier post. I am for choice but id rather adoption be the first option rathr than abortion but if the woman chooses abortion it is her choice and she should be supported(unless she uses it for birth control)
paul_valaru
1/21/04, 10:11pm
i feel the same way. I thought i made it clear?
I was agreeing with you
I could have phrased it better
Professur
1/21/04, 10:30pm
(unless she uses it for birth control)
What else can it be used for? Clearing up her fuckin' hemeroids?
It's always for birth control
Just to add a twist to the "what if" argument, Stephen Hawking should have died 45 years ago.
Whoever said that it's a fetus & doesn't feel...that may be true for a few weeks but don't tell me a 16+week can't feel, quit lying to yourself. If that fetus were born prematurely, it would most certainly feel.
As of 6PM, it/she/they're still alive.
What do you calll /it/she/them? 2 heads & 2 hearts, 1 body.
paul_valaru
1/21/04, 10:32pm
I think freak meant when a woman uses is it as the only means of birth control ei having 7 abortion.
if you don't want a child, use the pill condom, etc.
accidents still happen, that is when the big A can become an option.
also due to rape, serious defects, it becomes a factor as well
Professur
1/21/04, 10:33pm
You call them people.
freako104
1/21/04, 10:36pm
I was agreeing with you
I could have phrased it better
my apologies. I was thinking i wasnt clear as to my stand.
Prof I meant that there are better forms such as condoms, birth control pills and the like. abortion shouldnt be used.
freako104
1/21/04, 10:37pm
You call them people.
thats what they are. however i am still for choice. a person is a person. so yes we call them people.
Professur
1/21/04, 10:40pm
I think freak meant when a woman uses is it as the only means of birth control ei having 7 abortion.
So one dead featus is Ok, but 7 isn't? What's your basis for enforcing that?
if you don't want a child, use the pill condom, etc.
Or keep yer damn knees shut.
accidents still happen, that is when the big A can become an option.
Accidents? Newsflash. Noone ever got pregnant without having sex. Divine intervention not withstanding. And in that case, I think the good Lord's gonna be mighty pissed at an abortion.
also due to rape, serious defects, it becomes a factor as well
Rape again? Alright. Let's make this simple. The woman want's an abortion, based on the baby being forced on her by rape? File charges. That way, if she's caught lying about it, she does jail time for falsifying a police report, and for the abortion. Sound good? If it was truely a rape, she's got nothing to worry about. Not to mention that a whole lot of guys are gonna start thinking twice about casual sex.
paul_valaru
1/21/04, 10:46pm
I never said I SUPPORT abortion, nor am I pro-death.
I am pro choice, I beleive it is up the the individual to decide fro themselves.
the 7 abortion is a figure I once heard after 7 abortions the uterus is so scarred it can not carry anthing to term again, I meant it as expressing my distaste to people who use it like it's getting a haircut.
freako104
1/21/04, 10:47pm
just cause we support choice does not mean we support death. there is a hell of a difference.
at the risk of being shunned, i'm not 100% certain that adoption is better than abortion. i think i've made it clear that i think abortion should be an absolute last resort, and my reference'd story is one that adoption works out very well. but there's a lot of orphans in the US (and other places) and overcrowding that could be prevented ... coldhearted, but ... :shrug: Just thought I'd throw it on the table.
I was adopted. I prefer adoption over abortion.
*giving the gift of the abortion thread to my dear friend ris*
unclehobart
1/21/04, 11:55pm
I am so glad that I steer clear of these abortion threads. Its one of those issues where noones mind will change and knives get drawn.
It as meant as a specific situation thread, not so much as a general ideology. :shrug:
yeah like it was gonna stay like that :elaugh1:
Get outta bed, pee, get your tea, play KoC & LoL then see that picture in the morning paper & see if it doesn't make ya wanna post something.
unclehobart
1/22/04, 12:10am
Plus... It was listed as a thread only for the anti-abortionists and yet everyone dove in anyway. Its the great internet bar brawl.
Here's an option that should make everyone happy.
All women are entitled to exactly one abortion. But, that abortion involves complete removal of the uterus.
Everyone happy?
Not really because oddly enough, there are medical reasons for abortions, and if you plan on stopping a woman from ever having children again because she happened to have one bad pregnancy that most likely would've taken her life and the life of her child without intervention, then why not just take the big route and cut off the guys balls (you know...the 2nd person involved in fertilizing the ova) while you're at it?
Take this case in particular...
If we had let God/Nature take it's course without medical intervention... the woman would've miscarried or died during childbirth. The cervex is barely large enough to allow one head through...two heads are out of the question. The foetus/child/baby (without the joys of C-Section) could not have exited the vagina..period. It would've died there eventually...perhaps causing hemorageing, perhaps causing the mother's death as well. If the mother survived, she'd still have to have the dead foetus removed.
The C-Section was prompted well before her 40th week of pregnancy. This was most likely because the foetus was under duress because of malformed organs, shared blood volume, heart defects etc... this was done to avoid the nearly ineviteable miscarriage. If, by whatever luck..the foetus survived to term, the C-Section would've been necessary.
Despite all this..the child/children die...why? Because you don't believe in the Guff? Because people who are not theologians are arguing over when the soul enters the foetus?
The mother and father are highly religious...that's obvious from the nearly immediate baptism of the girls...they're so religious that they would never have thought of abortion...they're just not religious enough to have considered another A-word into their decision...Adultery. (Sex before marriage).
tsk tsk
freako104
1/22/04, 01:11am
at the risk of being shunned, i'm not 100% certain that adoption is better than abortion. i think i've made it clear that i think abortion should be an absolute last resort, and my reference'd story is one that adoption works out very well. but there's a lot of orphans in the US (and other places) and overcrowding that could be prevented ... coldhearted, but ... :shrug: Just thought I'd throw it on the table.
I dont totally disagree with you Rose its just I dont like the idea of killing things in general. that is why i wish it was a last resort is all.
AlphaTroll
1/22/04, 06:03am
And she won't have any further kids to pass on her warped opinions about the value of a human life..
That's crap (not to mention hurtful) - so because I don't agree with your POV I should never have children? Pity, I always thought I'd love to have a family of my own some day, was even kinda hoping that I could be a good mother. But hey, if having my own opinions and demanding the freedom to choose how to express them makes me warped then I suppose I'd be a terrible mom........shit, imaging teaching children that's it's OK for them to think for themselves and that they have the right to certain freedoms, as long as they always bear in mind that their choices should be well-informed and the best for them while not purposely causing harm to others. And imagine raising a child to believe that their opinions are valid, but not always correct And the gods forbid wanting to instill in a child the values of respecting other people but not being afraid to question them...........nah, yer right - a pro-choicer like me shouldn't become a mom.....hell, I probably shouldn't even own pets.
sam_fisher
1/22/04, 12:33pm
at the risk of being shunned, i'm not 100% certain that adoption is better than abortion. i think i've made it clear that i think abortion should be an absolute last resort, and my reference'd story is one that adoption works out very well. but there's a lot of orphans in the US (and other places) and overcrowding that could be prevented ... coldhearted, but ... :shrug: Just thought I'd throw it on the table.:eyepop: dang Rose. thats IS coldhearted.
but....:ihi:
sam.
Uki Chick
1/22/04, 03:23pm
The mother and father are highly religious...that's obvious from the nearly immediate baptism of the girls...they're so religious that they would never have thought of abortion...they're just not religious enough to have considered another A-word into their decision...Adultery. (Sex before marriage).
tsk tsk
Bish, they are married. They got married this past summer.
Accidents? Newsflash. Noone ever got pregnant without having sex.
Accidents do happen. No, obviously not without having sex, but they do happen. Condoms bust, birth control pills fail etc.
AlphaTroll
1/22/04, 03:40pm
Bish, they are married. They got married this past summer.
Accidents? Newsflash. Noone ever got pregnant without having sex.
Accidents do happen. No, obviously not without having sex, but they do happen. Condoms bust, birth control pills fail etc.
Ye know, my mother taught me that the only way the Pill is ever really effective is if you clasp it between your knees.
freako104
1/22/04, 03:49pm
The mother and father are highly religious...that's obvious from the nearly immediate baptism of the girls...they're so religious that they would never have thought of abortion...they're just not religious enough to have considered another A-word into their decision...Adultery. (Sex before marriage).
I thought fornication was sex before marriage? adultery is when a married man has an affair or when a married woman has an affair
Uki Chick
1/22/04, 03:53pm
Ye know, my mother taught me that the only way the Pill is ever really effective is if you clasp it between your knees.
What is that all about? I've never heard anything of the sort.
freako104
1/22/04, 03:55pm
i think she means the best is to keep the legs closed
AlphaTroll
1/22/04, 03:56pm
Because the damned thing is so small you have to really keep yer kneews tight against each other to make sure it doesn't fall out.....and if yer legs can't open ye can't very well get pregnant can you?
Because the damned thing is so small you have to really keep yer kneews tight against each other to make sure it doesn't fall out.....and if yer legs can't open ye can't very well get pregnant can you?
Except aren't there positions that allow for this ..... Nevermind.
Freak - I'm with you. I think adultery is a married person having an affair with another married (or unmarried) person. Don't know about fornification, though.
AlphaTroll
1/22/04, 04:09pm
Yup.....first thing is asked mom after she imparted that bit of knowledge was "what about bending over?"
Don't think she appreciated that.
Yup.....first thing is asked mom after she imparted that bit of knowledge was "what about bending over?"
Don't think she appreciated that.
:lol: My thoughts exactly ... though I'd not have had the gall to ask!
freako104
1/22/04, 04:17pm
Yup.....first thing is asked mom after she imparted that bit of knowledge was "what about bending over?"
Don't think she appreciated that.
:rofl:
AlphaTroll
1/22/04, 04:18pm
I'm insanely curious at times and have always figured that, if you don't ask you'll never know..... unfortunately that kind of logic doesn't do well when yer discussing sex with your mom.
My questionable logic reached new heights when, at the age of 9, I asked my grandmother if she knew what a blowjob was :rolleyes: To this day I don't know if she does or not......but I sure have developped an affinity for pepper, which was the punishment she chose for me (I always got pepper in the mouth if I cursed or said something that offended my grandmother's sensibilities....until she figured out that I like pepper)
freako104
1/22/04, 04:23pm
i found experience works better than asking ;)
AlphaTroll
1/22/04, 04:26pm
Probably, but I wasn't exactly interested in sex or anything related until I was about 19 or so :shrug:
sam_fisher
1/22/04, 09:24pm
Probably, but I wasn't exactly interested in sex or anything related until I was about 19 or so :shrug:
:eek13: why?
freako104
1/22/04, 11:19pm
Probably, but I wasn't exactly interested in sex or anything related until I was about 19 or so :shrug:
:eek6:
would you? with advance knowledge?
http://www.fortwayne.com/images/fortwayne/journalgazette/7761/60233329547.jpg
Story (http://www.fortwayne.com/mld/journalgazette/7760584.htm)
Sticking to the question, if I knew waaayy in advance(like the day after I conceived) then I would take medication to terminate the splitting cells, because by then, that's all they would have been.(I would kill more cells by flicking myself with an elastic band).
But if it was beyond the point of taking medication then I wouldn't have a clue. I guess it's one of those things where you actually have to be in the position to make such a decision.
freako104
1/23/04, 02:41am
which I think is the best answer yet
BeardofPants
1/23/04, 07:24am
eh, wrong thread. just got off a plane. brain not working. :retard:
I thought fornication was sex before marriage? adultery is when a married man has an affair or when a married woman has an affair
That's the common misconception and the modern useage. It's actually with someone with whom you are not married. Affairs are with people to whom you're not married and so is pre-marital sex.
Fornication is pre-marital sex in spades...multiple occasions :)
Bish, they are married. They got married this past summer.
Accidents? Newsflash. Noone ever got pregnant without having sex.
Accidents do happen. No, obviously not without having sex, but they do happen. Condoms bust, birth control pills fail etc.
Summer of 2003...that was about hmmm....8 months or so ago. Pregnancy last 10 months (40 weeks) That'd be in March sometime. I guess that they had themselves an early honeymoon ;) or...a shot-gun wedding.
Acceidental pregnancy while on the pill happen fairly often. Both my wife and her brother are BC-Babies..both concieved during a stressful time...in one case, because of a death in the family...in the other, because of a massive job-loss.
Shit happens, eh?
AlphaTroll
1/23/04, 11:49am
Summer of 2003...that was about hmmm....8 months or so ago. Pregnancy last 10 months (40 weeks)
If you're a cow maybe....for us human chicks it's 36 weeks / 9 months ;)
If you're a cow maybe....for us human chicks it's 36 weeks / 9 months ;)Human gestation period is considered to be 39 weeks (from conception), or 40
weeks from the onset of the last menstrual period. Variaton from this (two
weeks prior or after) is considered normal. More than that is "premature,
or postmature".
Elephant 22 months( 660 days )
Horse11 months( 330 days )
Cow9.5 months( 285 days )
Human9 months( 275 days )
Sheep4.5 months( 144 days )
Pig4 months( 114 days )
Dog2 months( 61 days )
Cat2 months( 61 days )
Rabbit1 month( 31 days )
Mouse3 weeks( 20 days )
275/28 = 9.82 months if you count a month as 28 days (lunar month). or 39 weeks
I'm removing my arguement anyway..frankly, I forgot to take into effect that the mother gave birth prematurely. I guess that Papa shot the silver bullet :)
AlphaTroll
1/23/04, 01:20pm
I have no idea why, but the colours you used makes it look like the sentence is kinda breaking off at the end (like the last bit of the word is falling off). Or that the list is going squiff - not in a straight line.
Maybe it's just my eyes.
I have no idea why, but the colours you used makes it look like the sentence is kinda breaking off at the end (like the last bit of the word is falling off). Or that the list is going squiff - not in a straight line.
Maybe it's just my eyes.
Sorry AT...It was a cat/paste job...fixed now :)
I am pro-choice. However, I think the choice should only be available up until week 12. One might of course ask why this week, and not week 11, 13 or 14. Well, week 12 ends the first trimester, and by this time the woman should have had some time to think it over. There is also the question of the foetus feeling pain, it was stated that this took place in the third trimester. I surely don't think it does in week 12.
As for myself, I cannot imagine ever having an abortion. The only reasons I could think of were if the child was so damaged it would surely die or suffer greatly, or if my own life was on the line. However, I am aware that I would'nt know for sure, until I was in that situation. I do hope that is a choice I will never have to consider.
To answer Gonz's original topic - would I have had an abortion had this been me ... yadda yadda ... Had my husband and I known about the deformities, the joining of the twins so much together that separation is a far chance - I'd probably have strongly considered abortion. Can't say for sure, because I've never been pregnant or had a child. Never been in the situation. But if I still think now as I would in that situation, then I would *most likely* not given birth.
drkavnger99
1/23/04, 03:05pm
A very hot topic indeed this is!! I have a personal scenario (happend to my mother) to put up for both sides (as I am pro choice). Start with a little history shall we.... the last child my mother gave birth to was my sister in 1984, in 1987 my mom and dad decided that 2 was more than enough children and so decided to have my mother fallopian tubes tied then cortorized by seperation (sp???). Ok several years go by, now a decade, now a decade and a half. It's 2001 and my mother noticed an odd thing happen her period didn't come she is now 42 years old so she thinks maybe the big change is here (you know menopause). She sees her local physician and they do a blood workup to find out whats going on. The next day we get a phone call, its the doctor he says, "Your Pregnant". A hell of a shock to the whole family and to the doctor who performed the surgery (who called not 5 mins after the local physician). To make a long story short after several tests they said their could be something wrong with the child for it was not growing correctly but was still considered alive at this point. They tell her its more than likely in her fallopian tube and that to find out if it was not would put her a severe risk of death due to a burst fallopian tube and internal bleeding. So you know what my mother did after several days of thinking about it.... She got an abortian.... with her complications and the chances of the fetus growing normally and correctly so slim (gave us a 1 in 1,000,000 chance of survival) even after several 2nd opinions. This was 6 weeks after initial conception too. Now for all you anti-abortionist who say there is no reason to get one... I provided one IMO and if you disagree then put yourself in the same position as my mother!
I think you'd probably come to the same conclusion that having this child would mean the death of both of you no matter what!
EDIT: I meant to ask what you thought just got a little to into it sorry like I said hot topic especially with me!
paul_valaru
1/23/04, 03:16pm
EDIT: I meant to ask what you thought just got a little to into it sorry like I said hot topic especially with me!
I think your mother made the right choice.
She weighed her options, and saved herself, and her family pain.
The right to lifers have 2 main arguements
1. at fertilization, the fetus is a person
2. Ignoring stories like this, and only using the people who use abortions recklessly as an example.
How could a right to lifer argue with her on this, incredibly small cahnce of survival.
well I know some would say leave it gods hands....but that is an arguement for another thread
well I know some would say leave it gods hands....but that is an arguement for another thread
It is also an argument for those who are believers. ;)
AlphaTroll
1/23/04, 03:26pm
I think your mother made the right choice and if it were my mom I'd have wanted her to make that same decision, after all doing anything else than support her in that decision would IMO be like saying to her that I place the value of someone I don't even know above her life - not gonna happen from this side.
I hope your mom is OK though, I know it's a really tough decision to make - she deserves all the love & support in the world.
paul_valaru
1/23/04, 03:30pm
It is also an argument for those who are believers. ;)
oh I know, just want to save the beleiver, non-beleiver arguement for another thread.
But as to the religious arguements against abortion (since it's sorta on the table)
How does a person, who is a right to lifer for religious reasons, tell a jewish person not to get an abortion, because the fetus is alive, and has a soul, when in the Jewish religion the fetus is not considered alive until it is born?
Does one religions views stand higher than anothers.
In montreal back in the 40's a lot of roman catholic mothers wanted to give birth at the Jewish General Hospital, because of these releigious diffrences, in other hospital if the choice was mother or baby, they would choose to save the baby, at the JGH they would choose to save the mother.
AlphaTroll
1/23/04, 03:34pm
Pauly, it's the same as people expecting you to swear on the Bible that you'll tell the truth in court. Well hey, if I don't believe in God & the Bible has no value to me, does that give me licence to lie?
paul_valaru
1/23/04, 03:36pm
you don't have to do that anymore, you can refuse to swear on the bible now (if they even still offer a bible)
well to correct that in Canada you don't have to swear on a bible I know in Isreal you don't.
I don't think you have to in the US anymore.
freako104
1/23/04, 05:31pm
I have a question for the rest of you guys. if you want an abortion for any reason but your S.O./spouse wants one or you dont but he/she does how would you feel and what would be the decision you make? Personally Id always support my S.O. if i had to but Im sure wed disagree. Dark first WB its been a while. second I am glad your mom made the decision she did after extensive thinking about it.
BeardofPants
1/23/04, 05:48pm
Thanks for the karma rose. :D Good to be back.
Now that I'm not completely braindead, I think I can contribute my own two cents. *watches everyone flee* ;)
I am pro-choice. I have known many women who have had to make this choice - myself included. I know that it is not an easy choice. People who think that women wake up and think, "hooray, party in my uterus, I get to have an abortion today! Woo hoo!" are completely misguided. My ex-nextdoor-neighbour had had a total of 7 when I was 11 years old. My best friend has had one - it was the worst mistake she could have made - for her. The next time she fell pregnant, she kept it, and she knows that that was the right thing for her. Another friend made the choice to keep her child, and went to school right up until her pregnancy term ended. I am surprised, in this day and age, how people at school were still so narrow-minded about it (the same people who rant about abortions I might add.) So you could say, I have seen from one extreme to another. In the case of the woman who had had multiple abortions it was sad - she felt like she had to have them because if she didn't, her long-term partner would leave her. I didn't know, back then, whether to feel sorry for her, or smack her over her head for her weakness, and ignorance. Now, having been through an abortion myself, I can't comprehend how she managed to go through 7 of them. It is NOT an easy decision to make, and it is both physically, and emotionally scarring.
Is there a point to this rambling? I don't know... Just adding the two cents of someone who has been through it.
drkavnger99
1/23/04, 05:56pm
Dark first WB its been a while.
Thanks freako it has been a while and glad to be back might I say! To you guys :blow:wait not that one :moon2:wrong again :hug: ahh got it :D
freako104
1/23/04, 06:05pm
Thanks for the karma rose. :D Good to be back.
Now that I'm not completely braindead, I think I can contribute my own two cents. *watches everyone flee* ;)
I am pro-choice. I have known many women who have had to make this choice - myself included. I know that it is not an easy choice. People who think that women wake up and think, "hooray, party in my uterus, I get to have an abortion today! Woo hoo!" are completely misguided. My ex-nextdoor-neighbour had had a total of 7 when I was 11 years old. My best friend has had one - it was the worst mistake she could have made - for her. The next time she fell pregnant, she kept it, and she knows that that was the right thing for her. Another friend made the choice to keep her child, and went to school right up until her pregnancy term ended. I am surprised, in this day and age, how people at school were still so narrow-minded about it (the same people who rant about abortions I might add.) So you could say, I have seen from one extreme to another. In the case of the woman who had had multiple abortions it was sad - she felt like she had to have them because if she didn't, her long-term partner would leave her. I didn't know, back then, whether to feel sorry for her, or smack her over her head for her weakness, and ignorance. Now, having been through an abortion myself, I can't comprehend how she managed to go through 7 of them. It is NOT an easy decision to make, and it is both physically, and emotionally scarring.
Is there a point to this rambling? I don't know... Just adding the two cents of someone who has been through it.
thanks for giving us the perception of someone who has been through it. I dont think anyone meant it was easy although some women do keep getting them as birth control. it is a living thing and a part of your body and to give it up either adoption or abortion is very hard on the mother :sadhug: im sorry you had to go through it
a13antichrist
1/26/04, 03:10am
Talk about retardation.. sheesh.
Try this scenario - for the pro-lifers.
A baby is diagnosed as having a lung disease that will mean it will die at most two hours after being born.
Given that the baby would never have any life anyway, is abortion here an acceptable course of action, in order to save the mother firstly the pain of child-birth and secondly, and much more importantly, the total emotional destruction of watching her baby die in front of her two hours later?
Yes or No.
They died Saturday afternoon.
A13-we're all pro-life. Only some are anti-abortion.
They died Saturday afternoon.
May they rest in peace. May Gods glory wash over them. May their souls be returned into the Guff so that they may be reborn and live their lives again.
For the non-religious types -- STFU For the religious types/spiritual types etc --- They were loved while they lived. Their lives were mercifully short but touched many. A quick prayer for them please.
drkavnger99
1/26/04, 11:14am
May they rest in peace. May Gods glory wash over them. May their souls be returned into the Guff so that they may be reborn and live their lives again. For the non-religious types -- STFU For the religious types/spiritual types etc --- They were loved while they lived. Their lives were mercifully short but touched many. A quick prayer for them please.
AMEN
And on a not much lighter note about abortion (at least the politics of it) there is no proven right or wrong answer except that there is always going to be an exception to the rules. I don't think anyone here thinks abortion as a birth control method is right and I also think that the pro-lifers here on OTC aren't for the extremes either. Just look at it this way if we can agree on this point then we just have the details to fight over :lloyd:
so how many days were they alive? How much money went into their birth and death? How much heartache did the parents, family, and random others suffer?
:shrug:
* For the non-religious types -- STFU
Bit of a knee-jerk there, Bish? :confuse3:
Bit of a knee-jerk there, Bish? :confuse3:
Nah...I'm trying to head off all the crap that's likely to come down when anyone gets 'religious' on OTC. This is likely to degrade into some inane arguement about wether God exists or not, church hypocracy or the gay-Bishop.
I'm just trying to put out a message without it being degraded beyond recognition or losing it's intent. A sence of loss for a death.
Yes, a gay bishop exists in Gods church...
:confused:
a13antichrist
1/26/04, 09:38pm
Still waiting for some answers to my question...
Talk about retardation.. sheesh.
Try this scenario - for the pro-lifers.
A baby is diagnosed as having a lung disease that will mean it will die at most two hours after being born.
Given that the baby would never have any life anyway, is abortion here an acceptable course of action, in order to save the mother firstly the pain of child-birth and secondly, and much more importantly, the total emotional destruction of watching her baby die in front of her two hours later?
Yes or No.
Yes, it is acceptable. But I suppose you weren't waiting for me - but for someone who's hardcore pro-life.
a13antichrist
1/26/04, 09:42pm
Yeah. But it's a start. :)
A13- how could a doctor diagnose a child, in utero, with such precision? One knows if a twin fetus has not divided by physical characteristics. They can't say the child/children will die. They play the odds & give a wide timeline. Your doctor is a prognosticator with a magic 8 ball.
a13antichrist
1/27/04, 04:46am
So just pretend he has no lung at all. Principle is the same in either case.
freako104
1/27/04, 05:16am
A13- how could a doctor diagnose a child, in utero, with such precision? One knows if a twin fetus has not divided by physical characteristics. They can't say the child/children will die. They play the odds & give a wide timeline. Your doctor is a prognosticator with a magic 8 ball.
even wiht all our technologies like teh ultrasound?
AlphaTroll
1/27/04, 06:08am
A13- how could a doctor diagnose a child, in utero, with such precision? One knows if a twin fetus has not divided by physical characteristics. They can't say the child/children will die. They play the odds & give a wide timeline. Your doctor is a prognosticator with a magic 8 ball.
Testing of foetal development and disorders are quite accurate these days with tests like Amniocentesis where the amniotic fluid is tested to ascertain whether or not there are any defects (the fluid is tested as there are foetal cells present in it, so they are able to test these cells by growing them for chromosome analysis - it's usually done in the first 14 - 20 weeks of gestation).
Fetal lung maturity can be accurately detected through this test & it's very important as the lungs may not be mature enough to sustain life once the child is born, i.e. after birth, the infant will develop respiratory distress syndrome from hyaline membrane disease since it did not produce enough surfactant during gestation to sustain lung growth & development. The condition may persist or worsen for two to four days after birth with improvement thereafter. Some infants with severe respiratory distress syndrome will die. IRDS is usually a factor with pre-mature babies as their lungs didn't have enough time to develop to maturity, but it can also occur in children born after normal gestation periods.
There are of course other tests available and some other diseases or disorders than can be accurately diagnosed include Renal Agenesis (Potter's Syndrome): Renal agenesis is the complete absence of the kidneys. The kidneys are the organs that filter the blood of waste products, eliminating them as urine. There are two kidneys in the human under normal circumstances. Absence of the kidney could be unilateral or bilateral. If it is unilateral, it means only one kidney is absent. However, if it is bilateral, it means both kidneys are absent. Unilateral absence of the kidneys is compatible with life whereas bilateral absence of the kidneys is incompatible with life.
Congenital Diaphragmatic Hernia (CDH): The wide, flat muscle that separates the chest and abdominal cavities is called the diaphragm. The diaphragm forms when a fetus is at 8 weeks' gestation. When it does not form completely, a defect, called a congenital diaphragmatic hernia (CDH), is created. This is a hole in the muscle between the chest and the abdomen. The majority of CDHs occur on the left side. The hole allows the contents of the abdomen, (stomach, intestine, liver, spleen, and kidneys) to go up into the fetal chest. The herniation of these abdominal organs into the chest occupies that space and prevents the lungs from growing to normal size. This is called pulmonary hypoplasia. The growth of both lungs can be affected. While in the uterus, a fetus does not need its lungs to breathe, because the placenta performs this function. However, if the lungs are too small after the baby is born, the baby will not be able to provide itself with enough oxygen to survive. Approximately 60% of fetuses with CDH do not survive after birth because their lungs are too small.
So no, in most cases they do not play the odds, they can say with reasonable certainty that the child will not live longer than a few hours. Whether or not the mother chooses to abort is up to her, but her choice would most certainly be justified in terms of the magnitude of the problem she faces.
I'll take your word on it
AlphaTroll
1/27/04, 10:37am
Thank goodness.
freako104
1/27/04, 03:01pm
I'll take your word on it
:eek5: nice one AT :winkkiss:
Said it before...here it goes again.
Many of the foetuses that have a good chance of dying shortly after birth survive until birth mostly because of medical intervention. Without medical intervention, the foetus would have auto-aborted or miscarried, or in the case of this couple's babies, would not have been able to have been born vaginally anyway. The parents and their doctors chose to intervene in order to allow these children to be born, knowing full-well that they would be siamese twins and would most likely not live very long. They chose selfishly to allow these babies to be born, baptised and die.
Can anyone tell me how this is any different from aborting the foetuses prior to birth?
They were either born to die or died before they were born. End result...they're still dead. There's still pain, both emotional and physical involved in both cases.
How would aborting the foetuses made it any worst?
AlladinSane
1/27/04, 03:13pm
Would I? No.
So, is THIS (http://www.cnn.com/2004/HEALTH/01/30/conjoined.twins.ap/index.html) any better than abortion?
They died a "natural" death as opposed to a medical homicide.
Either way they are dead. :(
freako104
2/01/04, 01:37am
So, is THIS (http://www.cnn.com/2004/HEALTH/01/30/conjoined.twins.ap/index.html) any better than abortion?
no better no worse. they had no choice
I do at least see one positive thing about them being born, though it might sound cold.
After an autopsy, Brynleigh and Victoria's lungs, heart and liver will be donated to The Children's Hospital of Philadelphia, a center for conjoined twins study. Doctors there will use the organs to teach future doctors about conjoined cases.
Maybe this might help save others to come?
AlladinSane
2/01/04, 01:23pm
So, is THIS (http://www.cnn.com/2004/HEALTH/01/30/conjoined.twins.ap/index.html) any better than abortion?
In fact, yes, it is. They were giving a chance to live and died a natural death after all the possible resources were tried...
I dunno. I'll be cold and just say I don't think it's all that better that the child(ren) lived for seven months. It's great that their organs can possibly be used to help advance research, but the emotional pain and financial burden suffered in those seven months ... I wouldn't have been able to justify it.
Children that live to be 100 years old start off as emotional burdens & financial drains. What's the difference?
You have a point. I guess I just weigh the chances a little differently.
I'm not making judgements, hell I wouldn't care if 50% of humans were aborted...I wasn't, my wife & kid weren't-that's all that matters-I just like pointing out the absurdities of both sides.
freako104
2/01/04, 04:20pm
even on your own side? i thought you only did that to the liberals :P ;)
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